Told you so??

[palerider]

This is a clip from a "conversation" that I was involved in some time ago with popeye:

The problem is yours. You have implied they have nuclear weapons, which is untrue. You have implied that they will eventually equal the Soviet Union as a threat, which is laughable. In fact, both of your implications are patently ridiculous. Your only basis for considering them an enemy is that they currently employ a different political ideology than ours. Oh, I almost forgot, one more reason, you have been told to dislike them by the Bush Administration. You have always claimed to think for yourself, here we have an example that shows the exact opposite.

Actually, you were the one who brought nuclear weapons into the discussion.

And unlike you, I don't need to be told who to support and who to oppose. Communism is bad news. Chavez has already assumed dictator status by his successful request to be allowed to govern by fiat. The desire and need for more territory and resources will not be long in coming.
I will bookmark this post to toss back in your face when he begins the inevetable and remind you of the shortsightedness that accompanies liberal thinking.

That bit of conversation is interesting in light of this news:

Venezuela Troops Head to Colombia Border

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5idVeR04d1FtNZsGLgohMrOgvjNxwD8V6NC383

 

[numinus]

This is a clip from a "conversation" that I was involved in some time ago with popeye:





That bit of conversation is interesting in light of this news:

Venezuela Troops Head to Colombia Border

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5idVeR04d1FtNZsGLgohMrOgvjNxwD8V6NC383

The news I heard is that they wanted to stop the smuggling of cheap venezuelan oil going out of the country. What have you heard?

 

[9sublime]

I support the actions of Venezuela and Ecuador against Columbia so far. Columbia clearly have got too chummy with America and think they can follow suit and walk into other peoples territories, taking/killing political enemies they decide to label as terrorists.

While I do not sympathise with Chavez's communist ideals, I sympathise with his left wing ideals far more than the evil dictatorship in Columbia, backed by the US. The sooner South America stands up to America and other imperalist forces acting against them and fights back, the better deal they will be able to achieve for themselves, rather than having America rip them off and put in oppressive right wing dictatorships to fit their needs.

Long live Chavez over the other governments in South America. The USA wants to spread democracy in one side of the world in Iraq, but has no objection doing the complete opposite below the southern border. America hates Chavez only because he stands up against them and doesn't submit to whatever they want - and I love it. Seeing all the right wing Americans getting their knickers in a royal twist.

I'm sure its only a matter of time until America gets the CIA in for a below the belt assassination operation.

 

[heyjude]

I agree with your post, 9sublime. We never go very long without trying to pull off some stupid stunt. And invading Haiti. It is about time we send the Marines in there too. I am amazed that there are still Americans who wonder why we are hated around the world.

 

[ilikeboobs]

SPANK!

Palerider - 1
Popeye - 0

 

[numinus]

I support the actions of Venezuela and Ecuador against Columbia so far. Columbia clearly have got too chummy with America and think they can follow suit and walk into other peoples territories, taking/killing political enemies they decide to label as terrorists.

While I do not sympathise with Chavez's communist ideals, I sympathise with his left wing ideals far more than the evil dictatorship in Columbia, backed by the US. The sooner South America stands up to America and other imperalist forces acting against them and fights back, the better deal they will be able to achieve for themselves, rather than having America rip them off and put in oppressive right wing dictatorships to fit their needs.

Long live Chavez over the other governments in South America. The USA wants to spread democracy in one side of the world in Iraq, but has no objection doing the complete opposite below the southern border. America hates Chavez only because he stands up against them and doesn't submit to whatever they want - and I love it. Seeing all the right wing Americans getting their knickers in a royal twist.

I'm sure its only a matter of time until America gets the CIA in for a below the belt assassination operation.

I agree. Chavez's brand of socialism -- subsidizing all aspects of life from the revenues of a valuable yet finite resource -- is economic suicide. One need not assisinate the man since he is doing that to himself and his country on his own.

 

[9sublime]

I think you have missed my point. Chavez is far from perfect, but I support him infinetly more than the US backed dictatorships that oppose him and his belief that South America should stand up for themselves.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Sad thing is even if we had nothing to do with anything, Bush has made it so easy to think we did with his talk. After all its not like we did not stage a coup against him already.

 

[Andy]

I support the actions of Venezuela and Ecuador against Columbia so far. Columbia clearly have got too chummy with America and think they can follow suit and walk into other peoples territories, taking/killing political enemies they decide to label as terrorists.

While I do not sympathise with Chavez's communist ideals, I sympathise with his left wing ideals far more than the evil dictatorship in Columbia, backed by the US. The sooner South America stands up to America and other imperalist forces acting against them and fights back, the better deal they will be able to achieve for themselves, rather than having America rip them off and put in oppressive right wing dictatorships to fit their needs.

Long live Chavez over the other governments in South America. The USA wants to spread democracy in one side of the world in Iraq, but has no objection doing the complete opposite below the southern border. America hates Chavez only because he stands up against them and doesn't submit to whatever they want - and I love it. Seeing all the right wing Americans getting their knickers in a royal twist.

I'm sure its only a matter of time until America gets the CIA in for a below the belt assassination operation.

I'm a bit confused by you. The current situation is that Chavez has caused havoc in Venezuela. There is massive inflation, and huge food shortages, the kind of problems expected by the infliction of socialism on the country.

As it stands, "Colombia is a key trading partner with Venezuela and Ecuador, supplying them with food and other goods. It has a trading relationship with Venezuela worth more than $5 billion a year and with Ecuador worth $2 billion a year." meaning that Colombia is keeping the sinking ship of Venezuela afloat. Without them, socialism would be causing more shortages across the land.

Now Colombia states that they attacked a rebel leader hiding just across the boarder in Venezuela. After the attack they have discovered evidence that Venezuela funneled $300 million into the FARC, the rebel organization.

Now Chaves is preparing a war.

So let's see.
Chaves is destroying his country and needs a political issue to keep him in power.
Columbia is supporting his sinking ship of a country.
Columbia is not completely outraged at the direct support of Chaves to undermine their country.
Now Chaves is planning to attack Columbia.

And you think Columbia is the bad guys? They are the only reason there is still food in Venezuela, yet you support Chaves attacking them? Explain what I'm missing here, because if there were terrorist attacking from the country next to where you live, and that countries leader refused to stop them, you'd send in a strike team too.

See, from my perspective, it seems if anyone has a right to be ticked off and preparing for war, it's Columbia. Here the very guy who's country they are keeping afloat, is undermining them from behind. Instead, Columbia has reopened trade with Venezuela. Talk about a forgiving nation. I would have cut off Chaves instantly when I heard what he's doing.

 

[9sublime]

You really believe that just because the relationship is worth a number that sounds bit, its the only reason they have food? Although I don't have any facts of figures at my disposal right now, I'll stick my neck out and say that Columbia only provide a small amount of Venezuelas food.

The problems Venezuela face are not relevant to why Chavez went to war. He went to war because a foreign government crossed his border and killed people living in his country. If someone did that in America, I'm pretty sure that would be cause for war - but as soon as a South American government that doesn't bow down to America does it its completley outrageous is it?

Sure, Venezuleas economy isn't great, but remember that the rest of South America is hardly rolling in wealth either and never has been - one of those reasons is because America sucks it dry of all its resources.

I'll repeat - Chavez is not perfect and nor is socialism by a long way, but I still support him.

 

[numinus]

I think you have missed my point. Chavez is far from perfect, but I support him infinetly more than the US backed dictatorships that oppose him and his belief that South America should stand up for themselves.

In my opinion, chavez is a foolish man. Assassinating a foolish man, is itself, foolish.

If venezuelans can't see the foolish man for what he is, then, they deserve him.

 

[numinus]

I'm a bit confused by you. The current situation is that Chavez has caused havoc in Venezuela. There is massive inflation, and huge food shortages, the kind of problems expected by the infliction of socialism on the country.

As it stands, "Colombia is a key trading partner with Venezuela and Ecuador, supplying them with food and other goods. It has a trading relationship with Venezuela worth more than $5 billion a year and with Ecuador worth $2 billion a year." meaning that Colombia is keeping the sinking ship of Venezuela afloat. Without them, socialism would be causing more shortages across the land.

Now Colombia states that they attacked a rebel leader hiding just across the boarder in Venezuela. After the attack they have discovered evidence that Venezuela funneled $300 million into the FARC, the rebel organization.

Now Chaves is preparing a war.

So let's see.
Chaves is destroying his country and needs a political issue to keep him in power.
Columbia is supporting his sinking ship of a country.
Columbia is not completely outraged at the direct support of Chaves to undermine their country.
Now Chaves is planning to attack Columbia.

And you think Columbia is the bad guys? They are the only reason there is still food in Venezuela, yet you support Chaves attacking them? Explain what I'm missing here, because if there were terrorist attacking from the country next to where you live, and that countries leader refused to stop them, you'd send in a strike team too.

See, from my perspective, it seems if anyone has a right to be ticked off and preparing for war, it's Columbia. Here the very guy who's country they are keeping afloat, is undermining them from behind. Instead, Columbia has reopened trade with Venezuela. Talk about a forgiving nation. I would have cut off Chaves instantly when I heard what he's doing.

Wrong.

Venezuela has every right to intercept oil bought cheaply in venezuela and smuggled out of the country. The oil is sold cheap because it is subsidized by the government for use within their country.

And who better to intercept smugglers than their military, hmmm?

 

[Andy]

You really believe that just because the relationship is worth a number that sounds bit, its the only reason they have food? Although I don't have any facts of figures at my disposal right now, I'll stick my neck out and say that Columbia only provide a small amount of Venezuelas food.

The problems Venezuela face are not relevant to why Chavez went to war. He went to war because a foreign government crossed his border and killed people living in his country. If someone did that in America, I'm pretty sure that would be cause for war - but as soon as a South American government that doesn't bow down to America does it its completley outrageous is it?

Sure, Venezuleas economy isn't great, but remember that the rest of South America is hardly rolling in wealth either and never has been - one of those reasons is because America sucks it dry of all its resources.

I'll repeat - Chavez is not perfect and nor is socialism by a long way, but I still support him.

Columbia is 1/3 of their imports. I wager a goodly amount is food. Further, It clearly is a large issue because Chavez has already openly said he will be pursuing other sources of imported food and specifically mentioned rice.

Food shortages have been a problem throughout Venezuela since 2003 when Chavez instituted price controls. Just like CA, price controls always result is shortages. Given that Columbia was the largest source of imported food, the result will be that food will have to be imported from other, farther away, locations which increases cost, making it more difficult to sell at government regulated prices. More shortages are on the way.

I think the two are related. Chavez is hated more and more by the people. His failing socialistic policies are driving his reign into the dirt. Without some external issue to draw attention away from, or even blame, the countries issues on, he will not be in power much longer.

As for Columbia's actions causing the problem, I was wrong. Columbia never went into Venezuela. Columbia launched a raid against a rebel leader one mile from the boarder in Ecuador. So Columbia never even went into Venezuela. Moreover, again, Columbia has direct evidence that the rebel leader was funded by Venezuela.

So, I still do not see any reason for Venezuela to be upset. I see massive reasons for Columbia to be upset. From what information I have right now, I'd support Columbia completely cutting all ties with Chavez, ending trade, let them starve, and then even marching across and flattening out Venezuela. They have reason to be upset.

 

[9sublime]

Columbia have reasons to flatten Venezuela? Please, I want to hear these.

Columbia went into Ecuador, a close ally of Chavez,without permission and killed people residing there. Ecuador and Venezuela reacted in exactly the same way any other country would act - and if you supported their leader you would support the action. But because you don't like Chavez and his government - because you are someone who believes to be American is to hate socialism - you don't like the actions they have taken.

 

[Andy]

Columbia have reasons to flatten Venezuela? Please, I want to hear these.

Columbia went into Ecuador, a close ally of Chavez,without permission and killed people residing there. Ecuador and Venezuela reacted in exactly the same way any other country would act - and if you supported their leader you would support the action. But because you don't like Chavez and his government - because you are someone who believes to be American is to hate socialism - you don't like the actions they have taken.

I respectfully disagree. I hate socialism because... it doesn't work. That issue has nothing to do with America or Chavez. Socialism doesn't work, causes problems and poverty. That's the only reason I hate it.

I knew nothing of Chavez until this very issue happened, and I research the situation, and I don't like what he's doing. Perhaps he's a decent guy, I don't know. But what he's doing seems very bad to me.

As for Columbia.... well, let me put myself in Columbia's place. So Columbia is dealing with an organization called FARC. Here is some information on them:

Bombings, murder, mortar attacks, narcotrafficking, kidnapping, extortion, hijacking, as well as guerrilla and conventional military action against Colombian political, military, and economic targets. In March 1999, the FARC executed three US Indian rights activists on Venezuelan territory after it kidnapped them in Colombia. In February 2003, the FARC captured and continues to hold three US contractors and killed one other American and a Colombian when their plane crashed in Florencia. Foreign citizens often are targets of FARC kidnapping for ransom. The FARC has well-documented ties to the full range of narcotics trafficking activities, including taxation, cultivation, and distribution.

Now, I happen to find out that the leader of this organization is in Ecuador, less than one mile from the boarder. What to do... well in the past Ecuador hasn't done anything to help. So what to do? You have only a short time to do something before the rebels move to a new location. I know... send in a strike team and nail those (insert not so kind word) people. In the process you find evidence that your other neighbor Venezuela, was funding this monster.

How about I translate this to something we can related to. Let's say Osama Bin Laudin was one mile north of the Canadian boarder, and Canada refused to do anything. So we sent in a strike team and after killing him found evidence that Mexico had funded him. Now who has more right to be upset? The US or Mexico?