White House: Withdrawing from a failed war is not an option

[pocketfullofshells]

Were Hitler still alive but not killing Jews and trying to over throw other nations we still would have had victory. The goal was not to kill Hitler the goal was to stop Hitler from mass murder and stop him from invading other nations.

How do you think Americans expect us to win? If you want the truth I dont know what the goal is in Afganistan. I knew what the goal was in Iraq and I think we met it. Now the troops are there to help things hold with the new government. When Bush was president the goal in Afganistan was to kill or arrest Al Qaeda and anyone who were acting as terrorists. I dont know what obama's goal is, or should I say was. He hired a general, made a plan aprox 6 months ago but now isnt sure about his plan and wants a new plan but meanwhile his general needs more troops to continue with the plan we was sent to do and is getting no response.

You complained that President Bush stopped paying attention? Are you bothered that obama has? While his general asks for more troops and our men die he goes on letterman and the tonight show and takes time to suffer a journey to Copenhagen but hasnt read the report sent for him by his general or responded about more troops.

Look I hate obama, I think he is a stinking bastard but I will back him where our troops are concerned. If he actually does something.

If he picks a general and the general asks for more troops and obama sends them, even if the war goes badly I will still back the President and the troops. If obama says lets bring everyone home I will back that too unless there is serious reasons we should have stayed like people being killed in the region.

It's this picking a general then not talking to the general or not reading the generals reports or not responding to the generals requests for back up troops while ours are dying that bothers me so much. The same number of our troops could have died and I would still back this president if he were doing what he set out to do.



I see what you are trying to say about the meanings of victory

please tell me what you think the plan is for afganistan and do you think obama is meeting it?

my point about Hitler and WWII...was you can look and say that we won the war on X date...its a clear win, a 100% surrender of the German side...YOu will never see that from a group like the Taliban or Al Quida becuse they are not state actors. When the UK was fighting the IRA....they could win..and have the IRA agree to a Cease fire...and 3 days later the PIRA is formed and keeps fighting....the PIRA years later says cease fire....the Real IRA splits off....and keeps fighting......You cant get the victory of ...we won on this day x...and have your prades and the other side formaly surrender. But you can look at the Security of the nation and say the Real IRA is much much smaller and not nearly as effective anymore and has far less Support....so from a security standpoint your main goal is a win....

And as for goals in Afganistan....I told you what the main goal is....Same as it was under Bush.....To disrupt the Taliban and Al Quida to prevent them from being able to use Afganistan as a base to train and plan operations against the US again as they did for Sept 11.

as for send more troops just becuse a General says....well guess what, evry General since the dawn of time....has always said I need more troops....They could be doing evrything right...or evrything wrong...they will always say if I only had more troops....And dont forget just becuse one General says they need more...he is not the top Military leader he reports up to others still. And you have some like Nat. Security Advisor Jones ( 4 start Marine General) who is telling Obama more troops are not needed. If you truly want to see a Veitnam, just give them more troops evry time anyone asks.

Other issues are, just becuse he said he wants more troops....does not tell you if sending more troops will actuly be effective. If the plan is needing to be changed around, sending troops may just mask the problems not fix them. 2.nd before you send more troops.....what troops do you send? we could send 40000 more troops but if we dont send the right troops its not worth it. 3. Are we able to send more troops even or would it possibly effect our Security in other areas to much...How many troops are ready to be sent and there units rated combat effective still . If you look at say Korea..They said send more troops ...and they did....but sometimes they where told to go...and had no equipment.

For all your hating of how Obama has done in Afganistan ( he already sent alot more troops there becuse Bush in 7 years had not done it) then I realy hope you where yelling about how Bush did it....Becuse as the theam of the post Bush Era goes..we are now trying to fix his mistakes....You know how the Taliban got to be back in power basicly for 80% of Afganistan? It happened under Bush..He sunk our resources into Iraq and had the idea Afganistan would just simmer and go away or something it seems.

And as for suggest Obama has not been paying attention to Afgainstan....I can only chalk that up to your blind hate of him, since no rational person could make such a claim.

fact is all the troops we have may not get a win in afgainstian if we dont do other things right as well....And Obama hase to look at all the issues in the plan...not just the military and its not something you make choices on in a day.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

If the goal in Afghanistan is to eliminate the Taliban or make it a non-factor in Afghanistan, we have failed, and I'm not sure we can succeed. The people still support the Taliban.

I don't think the Taliban can defeat, or ever will be able to defeat, even a small element of the US armed forces in any pitched battle. So there may be an ugly withdrawal, but only when we decide to do so.

Moreover, we're not the only nation with troops there. Officially, even if it is only a sham, we have allies. Getting out will not be simple or pain free.

The people in fact do not support them....they simply fear them.

 

[Pandora]

And as for suggest Obama has not been paying attention to Afgainstan....I can only chalk that up to your blind hate of him, since no rational person could make such a claim.

I disagree with this

I fully admit I hate his frakin guts but that is not why I think he is not paying attention.

His not speaking to his general, not reading the report written by his general
and spending his time on tv shows and going over sea's to stump for the olympics is the reason I say what I say.

I could not nor would not have said or thought what I do if he were communicating with his general, reading the reports and putting his time into it instead of tv shows exc.

I am not the only person who feels this way. After much complaining from various people he finally made a meeting with his general and seems to be talking more about the plan. But it took much complaining from people for this to happen.

I will never like the rat but if he does something, makes an actual call and sticks with it where the military is concerned, I am going to back him for the sake of the military, troops and my country. Hating him wont ever get in the way of that.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I do not like the Taliban at all and would be happy to see them gone but I thought it was Al-Qaeda's group with Osama who attacked us and was our threat, not the Taliban.

2 groups, one basic set of ideas. The Taliban started as a group of fundamentalist from Pakistan , funded by there Intelligence community. And grew in power in the Afgan Civil War. Near By the time Osama was kicked out of Sudan...the Taliban was still at war and fighting the norther Alliance...and Bin Laden came as a guest of the Taliban * thus based on culture...is to be defended as a guest. In Return Bin Laden helped train the Taliban in more advance terror tactics, and battle tested troops. He provided money, and connections as well...The Taliban in return gave him a nation to base operations from, and protection as well as a new group of people to recruit from. There where of course negotiations with the Taliban to turn in Bin Laden, but none came threw, its very possibly there was never any real intent to do so...but at same time, Taliban started to see how keeping him could result in actions that threaten there own power in Afghanistan ...

As a result, before Sept 11, aka Sept 9...Knowing he would need the support of the Taliban and the heat that was going to come down on them....Bin Laden and Al Qaeda killed Ahmad Shah Massoud in a suicide attack ( 2 men posing as a camera crew to Camera bombs) When the US came to them and said turn him over, they did not, and went we sent troops in...they fought along side Al Qaeda....so are they the same...no....do we need to take out both for our secuirty....yes

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I disagree with this

I fully admit I hate his frakin guts but that is not why I think he is not paying attention.

His not speaking to his general, not reading the report written by his general
and spending his time on tv shows and going over sea's to stump for the olympics is the reason I say what I say.

I could not nor would not have said or thought what I do if he were communicating with his general, reading the reports and putting his time into it instead of tv shows exc.

I am not the only person who feels this way. After much complaining from various people he finally made a meeting with his general and seems to be talking more about the plan. But it took much complaining from people for this to happen.

I will never like the rat but if he does something, makes an actual call and sticks with it where the military is concerned, I am going to back him for the sake of the military, troops and my country. Hating him wont ever get in the way of that.

DO you have his phones taped? becuse how do you know how often he talks to them? And also you know that you know that you can get what he needs and his views with out having to talk to him personaly....They actuly both have people paid to help make that happen...also you must have forgot that they just meet in person in Europe last week....he whole not being on same part of the world makes it hard to do alot of face to face meetings....the fact is you have no idea what Obama has done to work on this, its pretty clear. How many advisers he has who keep him up to date on changes and present different ideas and what the Generals want, and what differnt services want...Obama has done more to work change the outcome for the better in Afganistan then Bush did since the year following the first invasion.

as for your idea that he has not read the report....do you not think that he has people who have who make sure he knows what he needs to out of it? Just a simple fact for you, you cant run the nation and read evry report sent to the white house. And not evry report is designed to be read by the president. Just like I could not give you a tax bill and expect you to undersant 95% of it, becuse the are written for lawyers and tax People....however I could give you alll you needed to know about the bill to make a infformed choice on it...and save you hours and hours and hours....Same with Military reports...Reports are written for specific people in mind...and written in that way.. What General Patraus, and NSA Jones need in the report, is not what Obama needs to have.

 

[Pandora]

DO you have his phones taped? becuse how do you know how often he talks to them? And also you know that you know that you can get what he needs and his views with out having to talk to him personaly....They actuly both have people paid to help make that happen...also you must have forgot that they just meet in person in Europe last week....he whole not being on same part of the world makes it hard to do alot of face to face meetings....the fact is you have no idea what Obama has done to work on this, its pretty clear. How many advisers he has who keep him up to date on changes and present different ideas and what the Generals want, and what differnt services want...Obama has done more to work change the outcome for the better in Afganistan then Bush did since the year following the first invasion.

as for your idea that he has not read the report....do you not think that he has people who have who make sure he knows what he needs to out of it? Just a simple fact for you, you cant run the nation and read evry report sent to the white house. And not evry report is designed to be read by the president. Just like I could not give you a tax bill and expect you to undersant 95% of it, becuse the are written for lawyers and tax People....however I could give you alll you needed to know about the bill to make a infformed choice on it...and save you hours and hours and hours....Same with Military reports...Reports are written for specific people in mind...and written in that way.. What General Patraus, and NSA Jones need in the report, is not what Obama needs to have.

I dont have to tap his phone, the general was asked about it and said he spoke with him once 2 and a half months earlier and it was the only time they spoke. The general also said he wrote a report for obama, the report was given to obamas defense secretary and that man said he had it but was waiting on giving it to obama til after obama comes up with a new plan.

Obama met the general for the first time face to face and talked with him for the second time after the 2 1/2 months and much noise and complaining from people on air force one in Copenhagen.

This stuff was all reported so I dont need phone taps exc.

 

[Pandora]

2 groups, one basic set of ideas. The Taliban started as a group of fundamentalist from Pakistan , funded by there Intelligence community. And grew in power in the Afgan Civil War. Near By the time Osama was kicked out of Sudan...the Taliban was still at war and fighting the norther Alliance...and Bin Laden came as a guest of the Taliban * thus based on culture...is to be defended as a guest. In Return Bin Laden helped train the Taliban in more advance terror tactics, and battle tested troops. He provided money, and connections as well...The Taliban in return gave him a nation to base operations from, and protection as well as a new group of people to recruit from. There where of course negotiations with the Taliban to turn in Bin Laden, but none came threw, its very possibly there was never any real intent to do so...but at same time, Taliban started to see how keeping him could result in actions that threaten there own power in Afghanistan ...

As a result, before Sept 11, aka Sept 9...Knowing he would need the support of the Taliban and the heat that was going to come down on them....Bin Laden and Al Qaeda killed Ahmad Shah Massoud in a suicide attack ( 2 men posing as a camera crew to Camera bombs) When the US came to them and said turn him over, they did not, and went we sent troops in...they fought along side Al Qaeda....so are they the same...no....do we need to take out both for our secuirty....yes

Thank you very much for the information, you won me over. I agree that the taliban is equal of a threat.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I dont have to tap his phone, the general was asked about it and said he spoke with him once 2 and a half months earlier and it was the only time they spoke. The general also said he wrote a report for obama, the report was given to obamas defense secretary and that man said he had it but was waiting on giving it to obama til after obama comes up with a new plan.

Obama met the general for the first time face to face and talked with him for the second time after the 2 1/2 months and much noise and complaining from people on air force one in Copenhagen.

This stuff was all reported so I dont need phone taps exc.

you have to understand...the chain of command goes up, and you are not talking about the hightest man in the chain...he reports to his higher ups....who also report to Obama with info. Obama does not need to talk to him personaly daily to get updates on what is going on. And yes they are holding off on any plan, as if you are watching, with the Election going they way it went....they need to see how things play out with that a bit more before they know what plan is going to work. There is alot of things that can or may change very shortly that could have a very large impact on how we move forward. The political situation is possibly even more important to winning this war then anything...and more troops will not fix that. General MacCrystal even points this out...that in all cases, more troops will not fix the issue and could actuly work against us. here is his report if you wish ( 66 pages)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...fghan-assessment/090830-afghan-assessment.pdf

but anyway point is, Obama is president of the US...he has alot of issues to deal with...and no he is not going to sit and play General Obama and try to make daily Decisions...thats the job of teh Militarty itself and the Generals to do day to day operations...The President has many people who get him the info needed when needed from many sources on Afgainstan...McCry
stal, Patraus, Robert Gates, the CIA...all can get him info threw chanals...they dont have to meet in the oval office to get the info to him....they dont even have to talk on the phone to get it.

So far I have seen Obama making the right moves on Afganistan and rushing to just send troops is the wrong idea....and I say that as someone who has stated in my opionion we most likey should send more troops. But who to send, how many, and knowin for sure that what your sending them for will be effective are all things that need to be looked at...as well as do you have the troops to do it, and what the costs to other areas could be if we send them. Also you are talking the word of one General as like the word of God...there are others who dont agree with his assement, as I said, 4 star Gen Casey for one, and he may aslo be getting intel from the CIA that goes against what is said in this current request for troops and plan. This is a war that is more complex I think then Iraq and needs to be well thought out if we want to win...just reacting to the wills of one man , or public presure is just how you lose this war.

one thing you should no, regardless if we send more troops or not, this is going to get more bloody not better for a while. If you read the report, we are talking about less armor, and moving our troops closer to the population....its going to mean getting better intel before striking targets ( that could mean sending troops in to get close rather then just useing spyplanes to do photo recon before hitting...Sending in troops rather then just rockets...The reason for this, is evry time we kill a wedding party again...we hurts our image, and the confidence in the people of Afgainstan...And in order to win, when dealing with a COIN, ( counter insurgancy) you need that support.

whats sad is this is all things that should have been done and delt with years ago...when the taliban was pushed back and we had far far more support over the nation. Over the years we have lost most of those gains, and now have to fight to get them back. Getting people to trust you once when you do this hard....to regain it when they have lost it, is even harder.

In due time I think you will see some more troops sent, and yes some of the more liberal Dems may not like it, but I think you will see it still.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Thank you very much for the information, you won me over. I agree that the taliban is equal of a threat.

Great Caesar's ghost! dont post that in the open...who knows what it could to do people on here if we now agree on something...let alone someone actuly changed someones postion on here lol

 

[Pandora]

you have to understand...the chain of command goes up, and you are not talking about the hightest man in the chain...he reports to his higher ups....who also report to Obama with info. Obama does not need to talk to him personaly daily to get updates on what is going on. And yes they are holding off on any plan, as if you are watching, with the Election going they way it went....they need to see how things play out with that a bit more before they know what plan is going to work. There is alot of things that can or may change very shortly that could have a very large impact on how we move forward. The political situation is possibly even more important to winning this war then anything...and more troops will not fix that. General MacCrystal even points this out...that in all cases, more troops will not fix the issue and could actuly work against us. here is his report if you wish ( 66 pages)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milit...fghan-assessment/090830-afghan-assessment.pdf

but anyway point is, Obama is president of the US...he has alot of issues to deal with...and no he is not going to sit and play General Obama and try to make daily Decisions...thats the job of teh Militarty itself and the Generals to do day to day operations...The President has many people who get him the info needed when needed from many sources on Afgainstan...McCry
stal, Patraus, Robert Gates, the CIA...all can get him info threw chanals...they dont have to meet in the oval office to get the info to him....they dont even have to talk on the phone to get it.

So far I have seen Obama making the right moves on Afganistan and rushing to just send troops is the wrong idea....and I say that as someone who has stated in my opionion we most likey should send more troops. But who to send, how many, and knowin for sure that what your sending them for will be effective are all things that need to be looked at...as well as do you have the troops to do it, and what the costs to other areas could be if we send them. Also you are talking the word of one General as like the word of God...there are others who dont agree with his assement, as I said, 4 star Gen Casey for one, and he may aslo be getting intel from the CIA that goes against what is said in this current request for troops and plan. This is a war that is more complex I think then Iraq and needs to be well thought out if we want to win...just reacting to the wills of one man , or public presure is just how you lose this war.

one thing you should no, regardless if we send more troops or not, this is going to get more bloody not better for a while. If you read the report, we are talking about less armor, and moving our troops closer to the population....its going to mean getting better intel before striking targets ( that could mean sending troops in to get close rather then just useing spyplanes to do photo recon before hitting...Sending in troops rather then just rockets...The reason for this, is evry time we kill a wedding party again...we hurts our image, and the confidence in the people of Afgainstan...And in order to win, when dealing with a COIN, ( counter insurgancy) you need that support.

whats sad is this is all things that should have been done and delt with years ago...when the taliban was pushed back and we had far far more support over the nation. Over the years we have lost most of those gains, and now have to fight to get them back. Getting people to trust you once when you do this hard....to regain it when they have lost it, is even harder.

In due time I think you will see some more troops sent, and yes some of the more liberal Dems may not like it, but I think you will see it still.

I dont want a general obama but I do think he could have been putting time to the war issue instead of the tv shows he went on. He spent more time with david letterman than he did the general and that just seems wrong to me since the war is going so badly, if the war were not going so badly or even good then I would not have cared if he went on a million talk shows.

The sec of defense said he was sitting on the memo from the General till obama makes a new plan.

1. he just got done making a plan 6 months ago, how many times does one change the war plan

2. wouldnt you need the memo from the man on the field and know his needs BEFORE you make a new plan?

those two things bother me.

I am not big on the war issue, if you notice I almost never got in those threads because I am truly torn on how I feel except to say if you are going to play then play to win in everything you do.

For all the time obama has been president I have not complained about war issues because nothing really upset me till this.

I was equally uset during President George W. Bush's presidency when I leaned that our troops were having to weld armor to their trucks.

Generally I will back and support the president even if its obama where our troops and military are concerned unless the president leaves our guys out like sitting ducks.... like obama is now and like President George W. Bush did during that period they had to make shift body and tank armour.

 

[Pandora]

Great Caesar's ghost! dont post that in the open...who knows what it could to do people on here if we now agree on something...let alone someone actuly changed someones postion on here lol

You made a great case, how can someone not agree when a very good case is made.

I think we have agreed on other things too, its just not very often

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I disagree with this

I fully admit I hate his frakin guts but that is not why I think he is not paying attention.

His not speaking to his general, not reading the report written by his general...

That's what Porky Limbaugh says, huh?



No...your hatred is still a result of your (typical) Right-Wing Bigotry, alright.​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

DO you have his phones taped? becuse how do you know how often he talks to them?

Pretty amazing, huh...how the Right-Wing Nutjobs KNOW so much...until they get the opportunity to POST their proof.

​

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I dont have to tap his phone, the general was asked about it and said he spoke with him once 2 and a half months earlier and it was the only time they spoke. The general also said he wrote a report for obama, the report was given to obamas defense secretary and that man said he had it but was waiting on giving it to obama til after obama comes up with a new plan.

Obama met the general for the first time face to face and talked with him for the second time after the 2 1/2 months and much noise and complaining from people on air force one in Copenhagen.

This stuff was all reported so I dont need phone taps exc.

Yeah....and, you forgot to post your proof, here.

Get-back-to-us when you've got some actual ammo....

​

 

[Pandora]

Yeah....and, you forgot to post your proof, here.

Get-back-to-us when you've got some actual ammo....

​

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