Ecofascist Disasters

[top gun]

Let's review. You claimed they had a high gas milage car today... as in TODAY. You have successfully proven they will have one... which I already knew. You have successfully proven they did have one... which I already knew. (remember I brought it up). Yet you have failed to prove they have one TODAY. So no, it's not better. You still fail.

Andy Andy Andy... they've had different generations of the 4 Cylinder Diesel at VW over and over again. They had them before 2005. They had ones like the 2005 I posted. We looked at either new untitled 2006 or 2007 (sat in them) when my girlfriend bought her 2007 Wolfsburg Edition. They'll have them in 2008. Diesel Jettas are about as rare as telephone poles. If I find someone to over pay and give ya $350 dollars for the 82 Buick will ya buy a Diesel Jetta? I'll order ya one if there's not one on lot near you but bet there is. You can get a new 08 in 08 I promise.

In a free country, should the government be allowed to dictate what is product is brought to market? (Read the constitution)

Absolutely!!! Says nothing in the Constitution about critical energy conservation or national security as it relates to foreign oil. Just like if something is unsafe. Of course it could be regulated. Common sense issue there buddy. Remember slavery was legal at the time of the writing of the Constitution. Sometimes things need to change for good reason Again I say to you... EVOLVE. Don't fear change so.

No, we would not. In fact I'd say that autos would be far better and more technologically advanced than they are now under my system.

Under your system we'd still be driving unregulated Corvairs and Pintos... if you ever even got to that sad technology. Who knows... maybe we'd all be driving the wonder machine THE 1982 Buick.

This is a fundamental flaw of liberal/socialist views. It's the idea that something would not happen if government didn't do something. This is exactly how Albore can claim he had anything at all to do with the internet, because if our wonderful lawyer/politicians group (that are oh so trustworthy) didn't pass bill X or Y, that did such and such, then it would never have happened.

You're silly. Corporations care about sales. They don't necessarily care about the environment or safety or anything else that they can factor in a good risk benefit. We saw it with the Ford Exploder... I mean Explorer tires and a hundred other products. Gas tanks on Pintos... the list is endless.

Bull... auto manufactures have always been trying to get the best mileage possible out of economy cars. Why do you think the Handa 600 was created years prior to CAFE even existing? By your logic, no one would develop high gas milage cars prior to CAFE being created. Not so. In fact, while working at the Caddy dealership, I found promotional material in an attic from the 1960s (I should have asked for them. Might have fetched a good price on Ebay), inside one of the primary selling points on a few models was 'best fuel economy in it's class'. So long before CAFE existed, getting the best MPG possible was important (even to rich Caddy owners).

This ain't rocket science my friend. You must realize there's a difference between looking at having the best fuel economy in a particular class (that only has to be marginally better)as a selling point... and having a dramatic difference in fuel economy and/or safety, dependability and emissions.

Just like, fuel economy would continue if CAFE was eliminated today. The only difference is, people would have more choice. I'm for freedom.

Depends on the cost of fuel to a great extent. And it would NEVER, NEVER move up at a rate as fast as raising Cafe' Standards does. It becomes the mandatory target to hit at a certain point in time. And again I remind you Japans average is 45 mpg and Europe is somewhere in between that and us NOW... as we speak. We can bump ours up 10 mpg, still have nice vehicles and the sky won't fall. Trust me.

However, freedom shouldn't be limited to those who do what the government likes. If someone, for whatever reason they choose, wants to be a full size conversion van with built in fridge Wii and 30' LCD display, that gets 5.5 MPG, I think that should be able to buy that... why? Because what is freedom if not the ability to buy what product you want? If VW comes out with a W12 1,000 HP sports car that gets 10 MPG... they should be able to sell it, and I should be able to buy it. These are the freedoms the Constitution was written for. You support a oppressive authoritarian government, dictating our lives.

Well if you look only at your own selfish needs like you're the only one on the planet I suppose that makes some sense. I mean hell if someone wants to mass produce a car using old USSR plutonium perpulsion... as long as you like it.

The fact is there a environmental regulations for good reason (the nuclear thing was a joke) but you get my drift. To quote Dr. Phil... IT AIN'T ABOUT YOU!

If conservation is demand as necessary (and I think @ $4 a gallon and up it's fair to say we are there) regulation is prudent. Possibly they sell the hogs with the disincentive of a higher gas guzzler tax but still leave them available for a time as technology catches up. Be it is absolutely reasonable to raise standards from time to time and circumstances can speed the need.

Just to see how far mentally gone you are on this path of socialism... tell me, if CAFE was eliminated today, that all cars would suddenly start getting horrible gas milage? You think Honda would suddenly have Civics doing 15 MPG with the next model change because CAFE was removed? Foolishness. All of them would continue to improve gas milage, and likely with better technology, than with an expensive half baked hybrid system that costs you $7000 more to save a few hundred a year in gas.

No I do not. I think they would continue to do just as they did before we raised the Café Standards before and stay pretty much in the ball park they are in with only the outside factor of current fuel prices slightly directing them.

All in all you will not see nearly the increases in more fuel efficient cars until there's a mandate. And once again this is where the foreign auto companies kick our butt. Since they are already building good high quality more fuel efficient cars around the world under tougher requirements. They can focus on the refinement and quality control end of things producing a better and more appealing product.

Dude... keep the 82 Buick forever and pay the price at the pump if ya want.

 

[Jarlaxle]

There are makers who have NEVER met the CAFE standards. Offhand, I can name several. They're a joke, plain and simple.

PS--Diesel VW's have been unavailable in about a dozen states (including mine) for several years.

 

[top gun]

There are makers who have NEVER met the CAFE standards. Offhand, I can name several. They're a joke, plain and simple.

PS--Diesel VW's have been unavailable in about a dozen states (including mine) for several years.

Well if that's true then maybe it's way past time we tighten up huh? I think some of that probaby falls into "gas guzzler tax" territory... which is another way to go other than just not approving them for sale.

No idea about your state. Maybe they have some extra emissions standard or something. They're available in the United States. They're all over Ohio. Go to Autotrader.com and pick... we'll say for something pre-owned... put in say 43213 area code & VW... you'll go to the next page... pick any distance... Jetta 2006... Go to View More Search Criteria put in Diesel. Pages & pages will come up.

The goal is to spread out the load on fuel consumption in various forms so we don't end up in an even more high price crisis, maybe even rationing, even sooner. Eventually America will have easily available alternative options to gas. But right now we're kinda trapped and the middle east knows it. We need to get ahead of the curve. It's a limited supply high demand scenario.

And a lot of things are completely out of our control. For instance China is putting an unbelievable amount of new cars on the road every day as their economy improves. Even with high mileage rated vehicles they are sucking up oil off the market like crazy.

It really boils down to this. Stretch the fuel now and buy us some time. Or really suffer much worse in the not too distant future.

We'll get through it though. Necessity IS the mother of invention.

 

[Andy]

Let's review. You claimed they had a high gas milage car today... as in TODAY. You have successfully proven they will have one... which I already knew. You have successfully proven they did have one... which I already knew. (remember I brought it up). Yet you have failed to prove they have one TODAY. So no, it's not better. You still fail.

Andy Andy Andy... they've had different generations of the 4 Cylinder Diesel at VW over and over again. They had them before 2005. They had ones like the 2005 I posted. We looked at either new untitled 2006 or 2007 (sat in them) when my girlfriend bought her 2007 Wolfsburg Edition. They'll have them in 2008. Diesel Jettas are about as rare as telephone poles. If I find someone to over pay and give ya $350 dollars for the 82 Buick will ya buy a Diesel Jetta? I'll order ya one if there's not one on lot near you but bet there is. You can get a new 08 in 08 I promise.

Nothing changes the truth of my prior statement. You can not go to a VW dealer and find an 08 or 07 TDI Jetta. It does not exist. You can not go the VW website and order one, it's not available. You still fail.

Sure. If you can find one for $350, provided I get $350 from the Buick, I'll take it. I'm not going to pay a few thousand in order to save a few hundred... but absolutely, if you offer one as a trade for the buick, yeah why not?

Absolutely!!! Says nothing in the Constitution about critical energy conservation or national security as it relates to foreign oil. Just like if something is unsafe. Of course it could be regulated. Common sense issue there buddy. Remember slavery was legal at the time of the writing of the Constitution. Sometimes things need to change for good reason Again I say to you... EVOLVE. Don't fear change so.

No you are wrong. The Constitution makes clear the federal government does not have the power to do this. I don't fear change, I fear tyrants elected by morons in the name of change. You can say it as much as you want, your still a socialist dictator supporter.

Under your system we'd still be driving unregulated Corvairs and Pintos... if you ever even got to that sad technology. Who knows... maybe we'd all be driving the wonder machine THE 1982 Buick.

You get more stupid the more you talk. The Corvairs and Pintos were products of government regulation. Typical liberal/socialist stupidity... make regulations that cause problems, then make regulation that address the problems you created and cite it as an example of success.

This ain't rocket science my friend. You must realize there's a difference between looking at having the best fuel economy in a particular class (that only has to be marginally better)as a selling point... and having a dramatic difference in fuel economy and/or safety, dependability and emissions.

Not relevant. They still were trying for the best fuel milage possible, and the rich customers still wanted it (which supports my prior point).

Depends on the cost of fuel to a great extent. And it would NEVER, NEVER move up at a rate as fast as raising Cafe' Standards does. It becomes the mandatory target to hit at a certain point in time. And again I remind you Japans average is 45 mpg and Europe is somewhere in between that and us NOW... as we speak. We can bump ours up 10 mpg, still have nice vehicles and the sky won't fall. Trust me.

Uh... DUH! Yeah have you seen the cars there that get 45 MPG? They are crap. Very few Americans would buy one, far too few to be profitable. Even now GM and Ford both produce cars in other parts of the world that would not even begin to sell here. No the sky won't fall... our ability to choose what car we want, will.

Well if you look only at your own selfish needs like you're the only one on the planet I suppose that makes some sense. I mean hell if someone wants to mass produce a car using old USSR plutonium perpulsion... as long as you like it.

Typical socialist... using the old "your selfish" phrase to support authoritarian government. Go to Cuba you socialist. We don't need you here.

The fact is there a environmental regulations for good reason (the nuclear thing was a joke) but you get my drift. To quote Dr. Phil... IT AIN'T ABOUT YOU! (you need to learn that yourself)

All in all you will not see nearly the increases in more fuel efficient cars until there's a mandate. And once again this is where the foreign auto companies kick our butt. Since they are already building good high quality more fuel efficient cars around the world under tougher requirements. They can focus on the refinement and quality control end of things producing a better and more appealing product.

It's amazing how our country was built on free market, free enterprise, and the ability to choose what products you want to buy and which you don't... and yet here were are with complete idiots trying to dismantle everything the country was built on... meanwhile we have jobs going over seas, economy going down. Then we look over at China where the government is doing the very opposite, releasing the market, reducing controls, and look at it booming!!

Yet here you are, still stuck on stupid, trying to justify the idiocy you support. I'd almost be happy to embrace your stupidity if I thought you'd figure it out, but I wager you'll be like the Castro supporters in Cuba, thinking he's done so much good while people die trying raft across the Gulf of Mexico.

Dude... keep the 82 Buick forever and pay the price at the pump if ya want.

If I so choose, I will... It's called freedom. Something you ignorant foolish socialists want to do away with.

 

[Andy]

Well if that's true then maybe it's way past time we tighten up huh? I think some of that probaby falls into "gas guzzler tax" territory... which is another way to go other than just not approving them for sale.

No idea about your state. Maybe they have some extra emissions standard or something. They're available in the United States. They're all over Ohio. Go to Autotrader.com and pick... we'll say for something pre-owned... put in say 43213 area code & VW... you'll go to the next page... pick any distance... Jetta 2006... Go to View More Search Criteria put in Diesel. Pages & pages will come up.

The goal is to spread out the load on fuel consumption in various forms so we don't end up in an even more high price crisis, maybe even rationing, even sooner. Eventually America will have easily available alternative options to gas. But right now we're kinda trapped and the middle east knows it. We need to get ahead of the curve. It's a limited supply high demand scenario.

And a lot of things are completely out of our control. For instance China is putting an unbelievable amount of new cars on the road every day as their economy improves. Even with high mileage rated vehicles they are sucking up oil off the market like crazy.

It really boils down to this. Stretch the fuel now and buy us some time. Or really suffer much worse in the not too distant future.

We'll get through it though. Necessity IS the mother of invention.

Idiocy. You elect into office people who legislate high gas prices and then claim they have to legislate high fuel mileage in order to save us from their prior actions. You truly are a socialist fool.

 

[RealHippy]

Idiocy. You elect into office people who legislate high gas prices and then claim they have to legislate high fuel mileage in order to save us from their prior actions. You truly are a socialist fool.

I don't agree with Legislating higher fuel prices, but please explain to everyone why CAFE standards are bad.

 

[Libsmasher]

I don't agree with Legislating higher fuel prices, but please explain to everyone why CAFE standards are bad.

They've only ever been met by making smaller, lighter cars - more people get killed in those cars than heavier sturdier ones.

 

[Andy]

I don't agree with Legislating higher fuel prices, but please explain to everyone why CAFE standards are bad.

There are three very specific reasons CAFE standards are bad. First, as libmasher said, the main way they meet those standards are by making smaller, weaker, more flimsy cars that are more dangerous.

People claim this isn't so by pointing to a small cars that have high crash ratings, but fail to realize small cars are not tested by the same standard as larger vehicles. You are undeniably safer is a larger, tougher car, than a tiny eco-box plastic mobile.

Second, since many companies do not meet the CAFE standards, the government puts fees and fines on corporations. Those costs, are of course, passed on to us through higher priced autos. So in effect, regardless of intent, it's just another tax on the general population.

Third, it tends to negatively effect domestics more than imports, resulting in people buying imports and domestics doing down the tubes... as they clearly are. For example, Toyota normally is already above the CAFE and thus ignores it. BMW, on the other hand, has never met the CAFE. It just pays the fees, ignores it, and sells cars people want.

But Ford and GM both are worried about negative publicity (rightfully so given how quick people are to attack them for anything and everything), and thus castrate their cars, produce junk no one wants, and end up in the red for years. Long term result, lost jobs, more imported cars.

Beyond that, it is an intrusion on the freedom of people to bring to market and sell whatever product they choose, and the freedom of the public to purchase on the free market whatever they choose. It's unconstitutional, anti-freedom, and pro-socialism.

 

[top gun]

Andy;37160]Nothing changes the truth of my prior statement. And you can not go to a VW dealer and find an 08 or 07 TDI Jetta. It does not exist. You can not go the VW website and order one, it's not available. You still fail.

OH ANDY... this is your exact quote:

I never said small cars can't be great. That's all nice and peachy. I may buy a Jetta if they come out with the Diesel. 50 MPG and it's no more expensive than a regular car, I may go for.

Where does it say in there, brand new in stock TODAY. It says, "if they come out with one." And even that doesn't really matter because there will be one this year 08. Fact is not only have they came out with one. They've had them for years & years. They skipped 07 and the new 08 will be out this year. All I said was. VW Jettas come in Diesel. That's as factual as it gets. Here's a dealer quote:

The last Jetta TDI sold here was the 2006 model, which had a 1.9-liter four-cylinder with 100 hp that was rated at 30 mpg city, 38 highway. That's not bad mileage - and it was significantly better than the gas engines - but that diesel's technology is nearly ten years old.

Beginning early 2008, the Jetta will again be available with a diesel - a 2.0-liter unit that pumps out 140 horsepower and 235 lb-ft of torque - but this time, it comes with all new technology. (Incidentally, though it's the same displacement as the 2.0T FSI, the engines don't share any major components.)

Sure. If you can find one for $350, provided I get $350 from the Buick...

I'm saying your 82 Buicks probably not worth $350... not that a brand new Jetta cost $350.

No you are wrong. The Constitution makes clear the federal government does not have the power to do this. I don't fear change, I fear tyrants elected by morons in the name of change. You can say it as much as you want, your still a socialist dictator supporter.

You're silly...

You get more stupid the more you talk. The Corvairs and Pintos were products of government regulation. Typical liberal/socialist stupidity... make regulations that cause problems, then make regulation that address the problems you created and cite it as an example of success.

Again you miss the point. They had dangerous design flaws and new safety regulation forced them out of the market.

Uh... DUH! Yeah have you seen the cars there that get 45 MPG? They are crap. Very few Americans would buy one, far too few to be profitable. Even now GM and Ford both produce cars in other parts of the world that would not even begin to sell here. No the sky won't fall... our ability to choose what car we want, will.

I'm saying the 45 mpg car average is at the top end. So obviously we can do better than the current 27 cars 22 light trucks. The proposed amount is 35 MPG for both. Still far shy of Japan but better.

Typical socialist... using the old "your selfish" phrase to support authoritarian government. Go to Cuba you socialist. We don't need you here.

You sound like a pissed off little Hitler when you rant. Calm down. We're all Americans voicing an opinion.

It's amazing how our country was built on free market, free enterprise, and the ability to choose what products you want to buy and which you don't... and yet here were are with complete idiots trying to dismantle everything the country was built on... meanwhile we have jobs going over seas, economy going down. Then we look over at China where the government is doing the very opposite, releasing the market, reducing controls, and look at it booming!!

I think you'll agree China is far from a totally free market economy... and you say they're booming. Maybe then the answer IS in the middle somewhere.

If I so choose, I will... It's called freedom. Something you ignorant foolish socialists want to do away with.

The 82 Buick is you my brother. Please keep it forever.

 

[top gun]

Idiocy. You elect into office people who legislate high gas prices and then claim they have to legislate high fuel mileage in order to save us from their prior actions. You truly are a socialist fool.

If the oil itself goes from $30 a barrel to $126 dollars a barrel how is that legislating high gas prices?

That kind of talk reminds me a little of Grandpa Simpson... OLD MAN YELLS AT CLOUD... LoL!

 

[top gun]

I don't agree with Legislating higher fuel prices, but please explain to everyone why CAFE standards are bad.

To hopefully avoid long lines at the pump and possible rationing it is reasonable to periodically bump up CAFE Standards so the car companies focus their resources on that part of the business model. There are other things in play also... gas guzzler tax etc.

The fact is that while it may be easy for some to say... Just let gas prices rise to whatever, I can afford it, hell with everyone else.

In the end if there's a shortage or production down turn or even an embargo (like has happened before... remember it well lines around the block) it's not just those that can "afford" it that suffer. It's all of us.

Reasonable conservation just makes sense.

 

[Andy]

To hopefully avoid long lines at the pump and possible rationing it is reasonable to periodically bump up CAFE Standards so the car companies focus their resources on that part of the business model. There are other things in play also... gas guzzler tax etc.

CAFE would do nothing to stop rationing and long lines. That's an idiots theory. Besides, if you really look at what caused the long lines, it wasn't OPEC, it was Carters foolish socialist policies. Price controls always result in shortages.

The fact is that while it may be easy for some to say... Just let gas prices rise to whatever, I can afford it, hell with everyone else.

In the end if there's a shortage or production down turn or even an embargo (like has happened before... remember it well lines around the block) it's not just those that can "afford" it that suffer. It's all of us.

Reasonable conservation just makes sense.[/COLOR]

Look in the mirror. You (and the complete idiots like you) are the ones that are causing gas prices to climb. You elect socialist morons into office, that increase taxes on gas, regulations on gas, prevent drilling for our own oil, prevent exploring for our own oil, force oil companies to use expensive Ethanol additives, prevent companies from opening up new refineries, all of which forces us to import expensive oil from across the planet... and each one causes prices to rise...

Then say that CAFE is going to prevent skyrocketing fuel prices? You're little CAFE standards that places fees, that are passed on to us, the customer, is going to fix your screw ups? No sir. You fail.

There is only one solution to gas prices... get... our own... oil! Stop attacking our oil companies, and take the shackles off them. Only us stupid Americans attack our own companies, and then complain when they move over seas, or when we lose jobs and Asians gain them. Or when we blockade every effort to make a product and whine about the product becoming expensive.

Time for Americans to grow up. Stop shooting your foot off and complaining someone must have stepped on your toes. Where we are, and the situation we are in, is due to the foolish choices we have made. New foolishness isn't going to fix that.

 

[Andy]

Not wasting my time with an argument, you have yet to, and likely never will, grasp.

I'm saying your 82 Buicks probably not worth $350... not that a brand new Jetta cost $350.

Then I won't be getting a new Jetta now will I? Why do I care how much you think my car is worth? Why would I care how much, anyone thinks my car is worth? In fact, why would it matter what anyone anywhere thinks about any object that I possess?

Are you still judging your worth by how much your car costs? That's very sad. Children make their value based on what they own. Time to grow up to be a man. I bet you are one of those people that every time someone talks to you, you bring up what car you worked on, or have, or drive... like anyone cares.

Reminds me of middle school kids boasting about how much their shoes cost. How pathetic we have people in adult bodies, with minds still at middle school maturity, comparing the cost of their cars like they did their shoes. So glad I'm beyond all of that foolishness You should grow up too. It's a better way to live.

I'm saying the 45 mpg car average is at the top end. So obviously we can do better than the current 27 cars 22 light trucks. The proposed amount is 35 MPG for both. Still far shy of Japan but better.

And I'm saying, it doesn't matter. The type of car that gets anywhere near that, wouldn't survive one month on the market in the US. Building a 100 MPG car isn't hard, selling a 100 MPG in the US is hard.

You sound like a pissed off little Hitler when you rant. Calm down. We're all Americans voicing an opinion.

Your opinion is that of a tyrant, an oppressive dictating government that controls are lives. You are un-American. My opinion is of freedom and liberties that our country was built on.

Benjamin Franklin has a word for you:
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."
The freedom to choose what product one wants for the security of government control of the market... and you clearly deserve neither freedom or security. That's where you lead us, and why I oppose you.

I think you'll agree China is far from a totally free market economy... and you say they're booming. Maybe then the answer IS in the middle somewhere.

No, actually I don't. My uncle was just in China. It's pretty much a free market. Now, it is not free socially. Government still dictates much of Chinese life. But the market is nearly unrestrained. If a Chinese man wants to take his cash and open up a business doing whatever he so chooses, he can.

The 82 Buick is you my brother. Please keep it forever.

If I choose to, I will. Freedom. It's what America was built on. Stop trying to take freedom away. Go to Cuba where you will fit right in with the rest of the socialists. I'm sure you'll qualify for a government position with this ignorant rhetoric.

 

[top gun]

Andy;37204]Not wasting my time with an argument, you have yet to, and likely never will, grasp.

I understand totally. You just obviously misunderstood what I said. It happens.

Then I won't be getting a new Jetta now will I? Why do I care how much you think my car is worth? Why would I care how much, anyone thinks my car is worth? In fact, why would it matter what anyone anywhere thinks about any object that I possess?

Are you still judging your worth by how much your car costs? That's very sad. Children make their value based on what they own. Time to grow up to be a man. I bet you are one of those people that every time someone talks to you, you bring up what car you worked on, or have, or drive... like anyone cares.

Reminds me of middle school kids boasting about how much their shoes cost. How pathetic we have people in adult bodies, with minds still at middle school maturity, comparing the cost of their cars like they did their shoes. So glad I'm beyond all of that foolishness You should grow up too. It's a better way to live.

Obviously you are not getting a Jetta. I could care less how much your car or anything else you have costs. You brought up the 82 Buick... I just followed along with your mindset of what is of good quality and what is not. I've said it about 10 times now... ENJOY THE BUICK!

And I'm saying, it doesn't matter. The type of car that gets anywhere near that, wouldn't survive one month on the market in the US. Building a 100 MPG car isn't hard, selling a 100 MPG in the US is hard.

What you are saying isn't the whole truth though. There are many very good MPG cars doing fine in America. I'll list some... Civic... Corrolla... Camry (best selling car in America)... Camry hybrid... Prius... Hyundai Sonata... Escape & Mariner hybrid... Scion... I could go on. No one said we had to match the Japan standard. Just saying if these type cars can get in that 35 MPG and up and up freeway range already... then raising the CAFE Standard to 35 Highway is really not an earth shattering proposal.

Your opinion is that of a tyrant, an oppressive dictating government that controls are lives. You are un-American. My opinion is of freedom and liberties that our country was built on.

You are the Fuhrer for sure (even rhymes... LoL!)

Benjamin Franklin has a word for you:
"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."
The freedom to choose what product one wants for the security of government control of the market... and you clearly deserve neither freedom or security. That's where you lead us, and why I oppose you.

If you fail to plan. Then you plan to fail... Your Money Magazine

No, actually I don't. My uncle was just in China. It's pretty much a free market. Now, it is not free socially. Government still dictates much of Chinese life. But the market is nearly unrestrained. If a Chinese man wants to take his cash and open up a business doing whatever he so chooses, he can.

I have 5 words for you... Lead Paint... Poison Dog Food.

If I choose to, I will. Freedom. It's what America was built on. Stop trying to take freedom away. Go to Cuba where you will fit right in with the rest of the socialists. I'm sure you'll qualify for a government position with this ignorant rhetoric.[/QUOTE]

Your petty name calling and the "I'm wrapped in the flag and you're not rhetoric" reminds me of a great Samuel Johnson quote.

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Don't be a scoundrel. Try working together. We're all just Americans searching for the best solutions.

 

[top gun]

Andy;37202]CAFE would do nothing to stop rationing and long lines. That's an idiots theory. Besides, if you really look at what caused the long lines, it wasn't OPEC, it was Carters foolish socialist policies. Price controls always result in shortages.

If cars get better mileage they need less gas. Gas is at the gas station. Pretty easy to see the effect here if you don't have to be at the station as often.

And who knows OPEC might do that again. Better to prepare for the worst and be happy if the worst doesn't happen. Then to hope for the best and be unprepared if the best doesn't happen... Abraham Lincoln

Look in the mirror. You (and the complete idiots like you) are the ones that are causing gas prices to climb. You elect socialist morons into office, that increase taxes on gas, regulations on gas, prevent drilling for our own oil, prevent exploring for our own oil, force oil companies to use expensive Ethanol additives, prevent companies from opening up new refineries, all of which forces us to import expensive oil from across the planet... and each one causes prices to rise...

ANDY... I'm not feeling the love.

While it's true there are taxes on gas (most of which go into the fund to maintain our roads & bridges) and we do restrict some drilling operations in pristine wildlife areas there's a fact here that can't be avoided. Oil will not last forever. I believe the estimate is at the current curve of consumption something like 60 years... say 80 or 100 years. That's not that long... seriously.

Then say that CAFE is going to prevent skyrocketing fuel prices? You're little CAFE standards that places fees, that are passed on to us, the customer, is going to fix your screw ups? No sir. You fail.

We'll try basic math:

Two people are stranded alone on 2 different desert islands.

Person #1 has learned how to survive on 8 pounds of food per month.

Person #2 hasn't learned how to survive on 8 pounds of food and needs a minimum of 15 pounds of food per month to survive.

There's often no more than 8 pounds of food available on each island.

Which person suffers most and probably dies off first?

There is only one solution to gas prices... get... our own... oil! Stop attacking our oil companies, and take the shackles off them. Only us stupid Americans attack our own companies, and then complain when they move over seas, or when we lose jobs and Asians gain them. Or when we blockade every effort to make a product and whine about the product becoming expensive.

Time for Americans to grow up. Stop shooting your foot off and complaining someone must have stepped on your toes. Where we are, and the situation we are in, is due to the foolish choices we have made. New foolishness isn't going to fix that.

That's fine for band-aid thinking. The truth is though if we agreed to start drilling in Alaska say... the estimate is 8 to 10 years before any of that oil becomes gasoline. And as that's put into use the older wells in other location continue to dry up. I'm not against seriously looking into some additional drilling sites. There are some places where it's just not a reasonable trade off but maybe we open up some new sites somewhere. Still doesn't solve anything.

At the end of the day if conservation and new technology aren't part of the solution things will get worse than they are now. Just a fact of life.