I can Prove God Does NOT exist

[9sublime]

The problem with your little story is that if people want to go to a barber and have their hair cut - they can. Some homeless people remain devout throughout their lives and still get dealt awful hands at every corner.

 

[SW85]

As soon as someone defines their God, I'll go ahead and explain to them how it doesnt exist.

OK, but this wouldn't be proof that God doesn't exist. It would be proof that that particular conception of God is imperfect.

Of course not. Haven't you ever (dis)proven a fallacy?

Fallacies are not negatives.


I'm surprised no one has pointed out the obvious -- maybe a belief in God isn't scientific. That's fine. Not everything has to be scientific. It's unscientific to say as much.

 

[Dr.Who]

The problem with your little story is that if people want to go to a barber and have their hair cut - they can. Some homeless people remain devout throughout their lives and still get dealt awful hands at every corner.

Wheter allegory or true, Jonah was swallowed by a big fish which I am sure was no picnic. But his suffering was needed to further the plan of salvation for all mankind.

Job lost it all to further the plan of salvation for all mankind. His suffering shows us that the God of the universe has the authority to determine the fate of every person on the planet. Which of course He does every day for every person. Everyone will die someday to receive either comendations or justice.

God promises to do what is best for all of us and sometimes what is best is to suffer a bit to further the plan of salvation. What is best for us is to get what we need but not neccessarily to get what we want. And what we need is to be saved from our sin and live an eternity in heaven. Often what we want is to have happiness and a big house.

Jonah and Job are intersting case studies but mostly that is not what is happening. Mostly the suffering we experience is the result of sin. Our own or the sin of others. When I sin I reap the consequences and often that results in suffering for me. Who is to blame but me?

When another sins it also results in suffering for someone. The murderer or rapists causes pain. God cannot be good and take away the free will of the murderer to commit murder. We would all be nothing more than automatons then. Who is to blame for the suffering caused by the rapists except for the rapist?

Most suffering is the result of some sin in the world. A good God cannot take away our free will and a good God would also do something about it. Which He has. He has created a plan to bring about the salvation of all who would trust in Him.

He created me for the purpose of loving Him. He also created my to further His plan for all of humanity. If He chooses to bring me blessing or suffering I hope that I can be thankful either way. If the homeless man is devout all his life then that is a wonderful testimony that people can love God not matter what the circumstances of their lives bring them.

And what should we do about the homless man? Obviously we should help him. You and me, individually or collectively as we choose to band together, should help him. You shouldn't force me to help and I won't force you to help. But nothing is stopping you from right now from keeping a McDonald's gift certicate in your pocket just to give to the homeless or making a donation to a charity that helps homless people or anything else you want to do to help. When enough of us help great things happen. When enough of us are negligent it shows how sinful the world is. The solution to sin has always been to change the hearts and minds of those who are sinning; "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, with all your strength, and love your neighbor as yourself."

In contrast passing a law that everyone must contribute to the fund for homelessness does nothing to address the real problem while it puts a bandaid on the problem we see easily.

 

[9sublime]

Wheter allegory or true, Jonah was swallowed by a big fish which I am sure was no picnic. But his suffering was needed to further the plan of salvation for all mankind.

Hmmm. I very much doubt the factual integrity behind the story in the first place - and I don't see how any sane god regards someone being swallowed by a giant fish an appropriate way for someone to deliver salvation.

Job lost it all to further the plan of salvation for all mankind. His suffering shows us that the God of the universe has the authority to determine the fate of every person on the planet. Which of course He does every day for every person. Everyone will die someday to receive either comendations or justice.

Yes, it was fair to punish Job and test his faith by killing his innocent children. Oh no wait - it was fine in the end- he got new ones!

God promises to do what is best for all of us and sometimes what is best is to suffer a bit to further the plan of salvation. What is best for us is to get what we need but not neccessarily to get what we want. And what we need is to be saved from our sin and live an eternity in heaven. Often what we want is to have happiness and a big house.

I think thats just an excuse for suffering, and a rather piss poor one at that.

I thought he was all loving and all knowing. If he is all loving, why is he testing us in negative ways? If he is all knowing surely he knows if we have faith or not and needs not test it?

The whole suffering is part of God's great plan is the lamest way of trying to come up with an excuse for evil. A small child could invent it.

Jonah and Job are intersting case studies but mostly that is not what is happening. Mostly the suffering we experience is the result of sin. Our own or the sin of others. When I sin I reap the consequences and often that results in suffering for me. Who is to blame but me?

Yes, thats why babies are born with terminal diseases.

When another sins it also results in suffering for someone. The murderer or rapists causes pain. God cannot be good and take away the free will of the murderer to commit murder. We would all be nothing more than automatons then. Who is to blame for the suffering caused by the rapists except for the rapist?

This is beating a strawman. My problem is that if you come to God, why should you ever suffer again with him protecting over you from things like bad luck, terminal diseases etc? I can understand that God needs to allow rapists for free will, and that a beliver could therefore be raped - but why on earth would a believer get cancer? Didn't God design the Earth? Why has he desgined it so small children get lukeimeia?

OOOhh, its all part of his great plan... give me a break. All this talk of God and suffering; Either you've never expericned real suffering, or you have, and as a means to deal with it you've turned to what man has turned to for centuries, God - to make it all feel better. Or you've been brainwashed from birth.

He created me for the purpose of loving Him. He also created my to further His plan for all of humanity. If He chooses to bring me blessing or suffering I hope that I can be thankful either way. If the homeless man is devout all his life then that is a wonderful testimony that people can love God not matter what the circumstances of their lives bring them.

Yes, but it makes you question gods very existence or nature in the first place. If the Christian God does exist, hes a prick and I want no part in his heaven.

And what should we do about the homless man? Obviously we should help him. You and me, individually or collectively as we choose to band together, should help him. You shouldn't force me to help and I won't force you to help. But nothing is stopping you from right now from keeping a McDonald's gift certicate in your pocket just to give to the homeless or making a donation to a charity that helps homless people or anything else you want to do to help. When enough of us help great things happen. When enough of us are negligent it shows how sinful the world is. The solution to sin has always been to change the hearts and minds of those who are sinning; "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, with all your soul, with all your strength, and love your neighbor as yourself."

In contrast passing a law that everyone must contribute to the fund for homelessness does nothing to address the real problem while it puts a bandaid on the problem we see easily.

But why should a believer be homeless in the first place? Why is the situation arising?

 

[Dr.Who]

Hmmm. I very much doubt the factual integrity behind the story in the first place - and I don't see how any sane god regards someone being swallowed by a giant fish an appropriate way for someone to deliver salvation.

Then you haven't read the story.

Yes, it was fair to punish Job and test his faith by killing his innocent children. Oh no wait - it was fine in the end- he got new ones!

Which do you think it was? Was he punished or tested?

The creator of all has the right and authority to determine the time for every person on the planet to meet his end - innocent or not. The guilty will be judged and either found faithless or declared washed. The innocent will get what the need.

I think thats just an excuse for suffering, and a rather piss poor one at that.

That's your opinion.

I thought he was all loving and all knowing. If he is all loving, why is he testing us in negative ways? If he is all knowing surely he knows if we have faith or not and needs not test it?

I do not beleive that He is all knowing or that the Bible claims Him to be all knowing. But that is irrelevant since the test is not used to provide God with information but to provide us with what we need.

The whole suffering is part of God's great plan is the lamest way of trying to come up with an excuse for evil. A small child could invent it.

Evil causes suffering. It is so simple and elementary that a child could figure it out.

Yes, thats why babies are born with terminal diseases.

Yes, disease is the result of evil.

This is beating a strawman. My problem is that if you come to God, why should you ever suffer again with him protecting over you from things like bad luck, terminal diseases etc?

God does not promise to protect you from suffering. He does promise to give you what you need.

I can understand that God needs to allow rapists for free will, and that a beliver could therefore be raped - but why on earth would a believer get cancer?

Cancer is just as much a result of sin as being a rape victim is the result of sin (the rapist's sin). The existence of sin in the worlds corrupts it in many ways.

Didn't God design the Earth? Why has he desgined it so small children get lukeimeia?

God did design the earth and He designed it to be perfect but sin changed it.

OOOhh, its all part of his great plan... give me a break. All this talk of God and suffering; Either you've never expericned real suffering, or you have, and as a means to deal with it you've turned to what man has turned to for centuries, God - to make it all feel better. Or you've been brainwashed from birth.

You do not understand who I am.

Yes, but it makes you question gods very existence or nature in the first place. If the Christian God does exist, hes a prick and I want no part in his heaven.

You misunderstand God to think so. But for a second let's take a look at your statment. First you start with the premise that He exists. If He does exists then His plan is the only plan in town. You have no better alternative. If He exists then His heaven is still better than His hell. Your statement is illogical. I think someone must be in a profound state of rebellion to prefer hell to heaven. So if and when that comes to pass then the results will be just. Of course it is completely up to you.

But why should a believer be homeless in the first place? Why is the situation arising?

Why shouldn't a believer be homeless? All of us here are just a brief whisper of smoke. Our bodies were given to us for enjoyment but they are just bodies. We should not make enjoyment our God. Compared to the richness and eternity that heaven promises no sacrifice is too geat if it will help us to reach heaven.

There may be a thousand reasons for homelessness. But one that I see is that it is an opportunity for you to be compassionate. Will you accept the lesson? Will you let it benefit you? Do you not know that your purpose for being is to love God and your neighbor? So go and love your neighbor.

 

[9sublime]

You are only making excuses based on no valid proof. Things like evil, sin, testing, punishment. There is no proof of heaven and hell - it is an excuse for the problems in the world which cause problems in the very basis of Christianity.

Under what part of God's great plan could a baby be born with a terminal disease? Because they are being tested or because of evil do not prove at all his existence, but the fact that it happens goes some way to proving the lack of an all loving, all powerful and all seeing God (which is certainly a premise of the Christian God).

 

[numinus]

You are only making excuses based on no valid proof. Things like evil, sin, testing, punishment. There is no proof of heaven and hell - it is an excuse for the problems in the world which cause problems in the very basis of Christianity.

A moral good is its own reward. If you persist on acting to the contrary, then you are rejecting the rewards that come from it. Its that simple.

If you need childish concepts of heaven and hell to convince you to behave according to a moral good, then perhaps you would fit in nicely in the dark ages. That doesn't change human existence one bit.

Under what part of God's great plan could a baby be born with a terminal disease? Because they are being tested or because of evil do not prove at all his existence, but the fact that it happens goes some way to proving the lack of an all loving, all powerful and all seeing God (which is certainly a premise of the Christian God).

Can you see or even appreciate the imperative of a moral good without human suffering?

If you cannot discern a moral good from your own conscience, then you are doomed to exist in private hell of your own making.

 

[SW85]

Under what part of God's great plan could a baby be born with a terminal disease? Because they are being tested or because of evil do not prove at all his existence, but the fact that it happens goes some way to proving the lack of an all loving, all powerful and all seeing God (which is certainly a premise of the Christian God).

I defy you to point out the part of the Christian Bible in which it's said that God would guarantee prosperity or even happiness in the physical world.

 

[Dr.Who]

You are only making excuses based on no valid proof. Things like evil, sin, testing, punishment. There is no proof of heaven and hell - it is an excuse for the problems in the world which cause problems in the very basis of Christianity.

You are half right. There is no empirical proof of heaven or hell. But there is proof to be had for those who seek it. Look inside. God has put the truth there for you to find it. And for some this subjective truth goes beyond what they can find inside. For some they will have an experience where God shows himself to them very directly. They know that no more proof is needed. But since they cannot share what they experience with others for the others to confirm it must remain subjective and not empirical. Moses and all the prophets testify to this. It is your choice to evaluate what they have said with an open mind or not.

Under what part of God's great plan could a baby be born with a terminal disease? Because they are being tested or because of evil do not prove at all his existence, but the fact that it happens goes some way to proving the lack of an all loving, all powerful and all seeing God (which is certainly a premise of the Christian God).

How we treat each other is very important. Those who harm babies testify through their own behavior that they are not worthy of being in the presence of the Holy One. It is their actions that are being tested and not the effect of those actions. I am not about to make light of the tragedy that is apparent when a baby is born with a terminal disease. This is the effect of sin in general and this grieves God and should grieve us too.

But we must be aware that our bodies are just not that important when you consider that they will fade away very shortly and we may live forever in heaven with God or live forever without God. Even the body of an innocent baby is not that important compared to what that baby will know with God.

Are you grieved by the effects of sin in this world? Then join me and let's do something about it. Refrain from sinning*, encourage others to do the same, pray, help those in need as much as you can. This world was created perfect but has been corrupted by no fault of God. This same God has done what He should; He has enacted a plan to correct the problem of sin. Now we are tested by how we respond to the needs of this world. We can act alone or we can enlist the aid of the Holy Spirit to be even more effective. Trust in Christ and you will be given a helper to aid you in accomplising your part of God's plan.


* I need not tell you what sin is nor define it. God does not need to do so either. You know what it is when you see or do it; the definition of sin is written on your heart. You need only listen to what it is saying. There are those who suffer from a greater ailment than those you have described; kardioschleroses. I pray that you are not one of these.

 

[Izz]

The problem with arguing about God is that it's all a matter of faith. If a faithful person believes then no logical arguement will dissude him, just as an atheist will not be moved by the arguments of the faithful.

In the case of the Bible arguement, or "the bible being the unfallible word of God" God didn't write the bible. Men did. And men are definitely fallible. Even if God was dictating, the prophets of the bible are still free to change what they want. If, in fact, we were all reading the same bible, then why would we have ten different versions?

 

[numinus]

The problem with arguing about God is that it's all a matter of faith. If a faithful person believes then no logical arguement will dissude him, just as an atheist will not be moved by the arguments of the faithful.

In the case of the Bible arguement, or "the bible being the unfallible word of God" God didn't write the bible. Men did. And men are definitely fallible. Even if God was dictating, the prophets of the bible are still free to change what they want. If, in fact, we were all reading the same bible, then why would we have ten different versions?

Correct. That is why there are ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENTS -- you know, the one's I've been posting here?

 

[Izz]

Correct. That is why there are ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENTS -- you know, the one's I've been posting here?

Nope. Feel free to tell me.

 

[Dr.Who]

The problem with arguing about God is that it's all a matter of faith. If a faithful person believes then no logical arguement will dissude him, just as an atheist will not be moved by the arguments of the faithful.

Both atheism and theism are matters of faith and a logical argument against them does not exist.

In the case of the Bible arguement, or "the bible being the unfallible word of God" God didn't write the bible. Men did. And men are definitely fallible. Even if God was dictating, the prophets of the bible are still free to change what they want. If, in fact, we were all reading the same bible, then why would we have ten different versions?

Most people do not claim the bible to be infallible. They claim that in it's original form it was infallible. Yes there are different versions - these are just subtle changes in the way that interpreters interpret what the original says. All the mainstream christian versions agree in almost everything and no major docrine of belief is compromised. The differences are generally minute and unimportant.

p.s. the prophets were not free to change what they wanted.

 

[numinus]

Nope. Feel free to tell me.

Ontological arguments are philosophical arguments for the existence of god without using the bible -- the cosmological argument being one of them. If I post the argument (again), I might be chastised by the administrators for spamming.