Palestine

[palerider]

Coyote, the palestinians already have a state. It is called jordan. The king, however threw them out and refuses to let them back. Since the king is an arab, they don't complain about his actions but instead blame all on israel.

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, the palestinians already have a state. It is called jordan. The king, however threw them out and refuses to let them back. Since the king is an arab, they don't complain about his actions but instead blame all on israel.

Jordan is Jordan. The king never threw them out - they weren't Jordanian to begin with. They were refugees. Israel did not come into existence in a land barren of humanity!

 

[palerider]

Jordan is Jordan. The king never threw them out - they weren't Jordanian to begin with. They were refugees. Israel did not come into existence in a land barren of humanity!

Refer to history coyote. What is now jordan was the bulk of the palestinian mandate. And for the most part, it did. The bulk of israel was swamp land that bedoin migrated through.

This stuff isn't secret knowledge coyote, all one need do is refer to a history book and a few maps. Here is a map of the palestinian mandate prior to drawing in israel:

Here is the present situation:

As you can see, the palestinians have a homeland already, they just aren't wanted. Why is there no pressure on the king of jordan to let them come home?

In order to hold a valid opinion with regard to Israel and the "palestinians" one must first grasp and understand the basic facts. Clearly you have not and do not. Some study on your part is in order before you can hold any sort of valid opinion. I thought you were involved in the discussion between Lilly Marlene and myself. She also had no grasp of the history there and as a result, couldn't defend her position in the face of the facts.

 

[Coyote]

Refer to history coyote. What is now jordan was the bulk of the palestinian mandate. And for the most part, it did. The bulk of israel was swamp land that bedoin migrated through.

This stuff isn't secret knowledge coyote, all one need do is refer to a history book and a few maps. Here is a map of the palestinian mandate prior to drawing in israel:

Here is the present situation:

As you can see, the palestinians have a homeland already, they just aren't wanted. Why is there no pressure on the king of jordan to let them come home?

In order to hold a valid opinion with regard to Israel and the "palestinians" one must first grasp and understand the basic facts. Clearly you have not and do not. Some study on your part is in order before you can hold any sort of valid opinion. I thought you were involved in the discussion between Lilly Marlene and myself. She also had no grasp of the history there and as a result, couldn't defend her position in the face of the facts.

What are Israels legal borders?

I think you are confusing me with a different Coyote....Segap maybe?

 

[Coyote]

Here - I'll help you. Here are Israel's original boundaries. If you want Jordan to take ALL the Palestinians who were displaced then how about giving them back some of their territory?

 

[palerider]

Here - I'll help you. Here are Israel's original boundaries. If you want Jordan to take ALL the Palestinians who were displaced then how about giving them back some of their territory?

Exactly how did Israel come to be in posession of the additional land?

 

[Coyote]

Exactly how did Israel come to be in posession of the additional land?

War and occupation.

While the Arab states were the aggressers there is evidence (including statements from leading political and military figures of the tiem) that Israel provoked them in hopes of a lucrative land grab.

Occupied territories are occupied territories. They don't belong to Israel.

Conservatives like to hold Israel entirely blameless for the state of affairs. They are every bit as responsible as the Arab states - I hold both their feet to the fire.

The Arabs used the Palestinians for their own political purposes. Israel is practicing what is effectively apartheid where it comes to the Palestinians. Israel refuses to take in the Palestinians (and they can't, demographically). Jordan refuses for much the same reasons. What is the just solution?

Give them there own state and broker some meaningful peace in a fair manner. Come down hard on Palestinian terrorism and come down hard on Israeli aggression. However as long as we hold Israel blameless, this won't happen.

 

[9sublime]

Can I just throw another idea out...

Israel being there in the first place is more unjust than this. A 2,000 year old religious stake on a piece of land now inhabited by other people is not something that should be acted upon.

 

[palerider]

While the Arab states were the aggressers there is evidence (including statements from leading political and military figures of the tiem) that Israel provoked them in hopes of a lucrative land grab.

Mind showing me this "evidence"?

Occupied territories are occupied territories. They don't belong to Israel.

Sorry. Israel owns that land. It is not occupied.

Conservatives like to hold Israel entirely blameless for the state of affairs. They are every bit as responsible as the Arab states - I hold both their feet to the fire.

Yeah, they exist. If they didn't the state of affairs would be entirely different. The arabs would have something else to complain about.

The Arabs used the Palestinians for their own political purposes. Israel is practicing what is effectively apartheid where it comes to the Palestinians. Israel refuses to take in the Palestinians (and they can't, demographically). Jordan refuses for much the same reasons. What is the just solution?

The palestinians are a myth. There are, and never have been a people known as palestinians. And the "palestinians" chose to live as they do. They refuse to become part of israel. There are arabs living in israel, working in israel, and holding elected office in israel because they have chosen not to separate themselves.

Give them there own state and broker some meaningful peace in a fair manner. Come down hard on Palestinian terrorism and come down hard on Israeli aggression. However as long as we hold Israel blameless, this won't happen.

They already have their own state. Are you asking that they be given another?

 

[palerider]

Can I just throw another idea out...

Israel being there in the first place is more unjust than this. A 2,000 year old religious stake on a piece of land now inhabited by other people is not something that should be acted upon.

The land was not inhabited. It was passed through by nomads until Israel drained the swamps and made the area habitable. Then, and only then did "the inhabitants" decide that it was their homeland. You obviously aren't familiar with either the geography, the native inhabitants, or the relatively recent (100 years) history of the area and instead have based your position squarely in your own anti semitism.

 

[vyo476]

The land was not inhabited. It was passed through by nomads until Israel drained the swamps and made the area habitable. Then, and only then did "the inhabitants" decide that it was their homeland. You obviously aren't familiar with either the geography, the native inhabitants, or the relatively recent (100 years) history of the area and instead have based your position squarely in your own anti semitism.

Really?

The Interim Report on the Administration of Palestine, done by the League of Nations in 1920, stated that there were 700 thousand people living in Palestine, four fifths of whom were Muslims. The report also mentions that of the total population 235 thousand live in the cities and 465 thousand in smaller villages and towns. There is no mention of nomadic behavior.

According to Sergio Della Pergola, there were over a million people living in the British Mandate of Palestine in 1931, 760 thousand of whom were Muslims.

Yeah, they exist. If they didn't the state of affairs would be entirely different. The arabs would have something else to complain about.

Sounds like someone doesn't like Arabs.

The palestinians are a myth. There are, and never have been a people known as palestinians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#Palestinian_perceptions_of_identity

And I'm sure that in 1812 the British were sitting at home talking about how there weren't any "Americans."

And the "palestinians" chose to live as they do. They refuse to become part of israel. There are arabs living in israel, working in israel, and holding elected office in israel because they have chosen not to separate themselves.

Internally-displaced Palestinians don't have a choice.

Those affected by the Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law don't have a choice.

And let's not forget all the talk of the "demographic bomb" from a few years ago - the Israeli power base is terrified of the idea of the Palestinians all phasing into Israel and then overtaking the present Jewish majority. The demographic bomb has since been proven untrue, but had things turned out differently, how do you suppose the Israeli government would have reacted?

In fact, were you a Jewish Israeli citizen and you were confronted with the idea of Arabs overtaking Jews in Israel's demographics, how would you respond? Simply sit back and allow democracy to run its course?

 

[SW85]

It occurred to me earlier that I have never, in all the time I've actively discussed politics, heard even one good reason why the Palestinians should be given a state. Some people simply talk about it as if it's assumed that it must be done at some point; they never actually say why.

So, why give them a state? I'll bow to the person who can tell me.

 

[Coyote]

Sorry. Israel owns that land. It is not occupied.

Not according to international law. Occupied territories are occupied territories. I believe we fought the first Iraq War because Saddam sought to "occupy" some territory that wasn't his.

Of course, there is often a double standard in place when it comes to Israel isn't there?

 

[Coyote]

Mind showing me this "evidence"?
The palestinians are a myth. There are, and never have been a people known as palestinians. And the "palestinians" chose to live as they do. They refuse to become part of israel. There are arabs living in israel, working in israel, and holding elected office in israel because they have chosen not to separate themselves.

MMay 15, 1948: Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Transjordan, Holy War Army, Arab Liberation Army, and local Arabs attack the new Jewish state with the intent of destroying it. The resulting 1948 Arab-Israeli War lasts for 13 months. By the end of the war, about 700,000 Palestinian Arabs become refugees.

Are you suggesting these 700,000 people are non-existent?

Are you suggesting that they have no entitlement to farms they'd farmed for generations, the land they grazed for generations?

Arabs in Israel are defacto second class citizens: one small example is Jeruselum. Building permits. If a Jew wants to build, or expand his house or buisiness in Jeruselum - no problem. Just try it if you're Palestinian.

They CHOOSE? Where is the choice? They're stuck between a rock and a hard place - with militant radicals, a swiss-cheese territory that is economically non-viable, almost total Israeli control of borders, check points, trade, energy, food and water - and their homes can be razed for any reason at any time with no forwarning. Most of them are just people trying to survive - like the Israelis.

They "refuse" to become part of Israel. Do you want to become part of Mexico?

They already have their own state. Are you asking that they be given another?

They do not. According to the agreements that created Israel - the territories should look like this:

I see a state labeled "Palestine". This is at odds with your assertion there is/was "no Palestine".

 

[Coyote]

The land was not inhabited. It was passed through by nomads until Israel drained the swamps and made the area habitable. Then, and only then did "the inhabitants" decide that it was their homeland. You obviously aren't familiar with either the geography, the native inhabitants, or the relatively recent (100 years) history of the area and instead have based your position squarely in your own anti semitism.

Demographic records of "Palestine" 1920-1945 don't agree with you.