The Virtue of Selfishness vs. The Morality of Altruism

[GenSeneca]

Life has intrinsic value, people are of equal value utlimately.

I disagree. One Einstein is infinitely more valuable than any number of death row inmates. Einstein's achievements resulted in contributions to mankind that have made life better for billions of people, death row inmates are a drain on society and achieved nothing but the suffering of their victims and the families affected.

Nobody NEEDS millions of dollars

It is not about what they need, it is about what they have earned and therefore deserve. An Einstein deserves millions of dollars because he has earned it.

until the needs of all the equally intrinsically valuable people have been met I see no reason to allow greedy people to hoard wealth.

Such seeds sow the crop of oppression when harvested. The products of my labor do not belong to you, it is not your property, it is mine.

You can allow whatever you wish when dealing with your own property but to think you have a "right" to dictate to others what they can, cannot, and/or should, do with their own property is the premise of tyrants.

To claim you have a "right" to the property of others is the same thing as declaring you have a "right" to make property out of other people, to use them as your slaves.

Why should we allow a financial genius to take what he wants from the public?

Why do you believe that if someone is making a profit, that the profit is coming at the detriment of someone else?

Why should we let a financial genius work with a legal wizard to work the law to their advantage so that they can just take what they want?

You are the one who supports the forced redistribution of wealth.

Have you seen the movie AVATAR?

Collectivist societies always look good on paper and in the movies. In real life, you end up with the German Holocaust, the mass starvation and purges in Soviet Russia, The Killing Fields of Cambodia, The Great Leap Forward in China... Anytime a government seeks to impose a collectivist morality on a society, force is used to violate individual rights and the results can be measured in terms of millions of deaths.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I understand and agree, that is why it is so important to allow people the freedom to choose how to live their own lives, and that includes the freedom to control the products of their labor.
That is correct, and why it is so important to eliminate governments ability to legally use force to violate the rights of any individual.

The only substantive difference between our positions is that you are willing to let the thieves keep the money they have stolen and call our situation here and now as being a level playing field. That's like calling a halt to the 2nd World War right after Japan takes most of Indochina and the Germans take France and most of the rest of eastern Europe.

What we have now is the greatest concentration of wealth in the hands of the rich that we've ever had in the US, this is not a level playing field.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Second, people such as Mare are not simply offering their own fish, they are offering the people with need YOUR fish and making it illegal for you to refuse.

Only as long as someone has a monopoly on fishing boats, fishing tackle, beach front property, and the concession to sell fishing licenses. First, we take that power away from them in order to make a level playing field, then we can teach them to fish. But if we fail to do that then your quaint capitalistic parables are just more hot air.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

allow ? thats the entire point of this country.

The whole point of this countries founding was the worship of money and power? I don't think so, if it was we wouldn't have had laws restricting the actions of people. We do though, we try to restrict the most violent and predatory and prevent them from raping the rest. It's odd that you can't see any middle ground: it's anarchy and Might is Right or it's immoral socialism.

there are any number of lines of work that they cound pursue but prize fighting was the most lucrative.
the other pair are not taking anything, they are earning it.

I'm not saying that what they did was not lucrative, but they were not able to practice their violent art without restrictions, were they? They were very carefully monitored and when Tyson used his power outside the ring, he went to prison.

where ever they wish and that they can afford.

And therein lies the problem, everything is measured by one standard: money. I'm of the opinion that in all of the Universe there are things more important than money and that we sell ourselves short to live otherwise.

 

[GenSeneca]

What we have now is the greatest concentration of wealth in the hands of the rich that we've ever had in the US, this is not a level playing field.

In 1940, the Washington Redskins were trounced 73-0 by the Chicago Bears. Both teams played on the same field, by the same rules, with the same refs, and used same ball.

In 2000, Tiger Woods won the U.S. Open by the largest margin in history with 15 less strokes than the second place finisher. Dozens of professional golfers played in that tournament, they all used the same regulation clubs, same regulation balls, the same tee boxes, the same fairways, the same greens and the same hole cups.

A level playing field does not mean that both teams score the same amount of points. If you have it in your head that a level playing field requires no team to score more than the other, then you are not looking for a level playing field, you are looking for the game to be fixed in your favor.

Now, explain to me please why it is you believe the current concentration of wealth would have any effect on holding back your success if we leveled the playing field as I have suggested.

 

[GenSeneca]

Only as long as someone has a monopoly on fishing boats, fishing tackle, beach front property, and the concession to sell fishing licenses. First, we take that power away from them in order to make a level playing field, then we can teach them to fish. But if we fail to do that then your quaint capitalistic parables are just more hot air.

The only monopoly at work is the Government monopoly on the legal use of force.

 

[GenSeneca]

The whole point of this countries founding was the worship of money and power?

Our country was founded on the principle that the individual is sovereign, with certain inalienable rights and the purpose of our government was to secure those rights. This means that each man is free to achieve without limit, by his own merits, by his own effort, and no individual, group or government action is allowed to violate his rights, or place limits on his accomplishments, or deprive him of the products of his efforts without due process of law.

At least that is how it was before the Collectivists began running the show.

 

[dogtowner]

The whole point of this countries founding was the worship of money and power? I don't think so, if it was we wouldn't have had laws restricting the actions of people. We do though, we try to restrict the most violent and predatory and prevent them from raping the rest. It's odd that you can't see any middle ground: it's anarchy and Might is Right or it's immoral socialism.

we are the land of opportunity.

I'm not saying that what they did was not lucrative, but they were not able to practice their violent art without restrictions, were they? They were very carefully monitored and when Tyson used his power outside the ring, he went to prison.

and when he tried biting the guy's ear off he did not.

And therein lies the problem, everything is measured by one standard: money. I'm of the opinion that in all of the Universe there are things more important than money and that we sell ourselves short to live otherwise.

ok you too are free to live your life as you wish.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Our country was founded on the principle that the individual is sovereign, with certain inalienable rights and the purpose of our government was to secure those rights. This means that each man is free to achieve without limit, by his own merits, by his own effort, and no individual, group or government action is allowed to violate his rights, or place limits on his accomplishments, or deprive him of the products of his efforts without due process of law.

At least that is how it was before the Collectivists began running the show.

Yes, and people have taken that to an absurd end, an end in which 90% of the wealth is in the hands of 10% of the people, and that 10% have rigged the laws so that even more money is channeled up to them. If you read the post I made with the concentration of wealth information then you would know that not only is there a greater concentration of wealth in a few hands than ever before, but that the rate of of increase is also increasing.

Why are you so smug about protecting the possessions of people when the founders of this country slaughtered the indigenous owners of the country and STOLE everything from them? Our country was founded on theft, our ecomony was fueled by cheap and plentiful resources, and now we are facing the results of our own actions. Our greed-based culture values money and the right to accumulate it over life itself. And you appear to agree with that standard while I do not.

 

[GenSeneca]

Yes, and people have taken that to an absurd end, an end in which 90% of the wealth is in the hands of 10% of the people

You either missed this question or ignored it, here it is again:

Explain to me please why it is you believe the current concentration of wealth would have any effect on holding back your success if we leveled the playing field as I have suggested.

 

[Helicitor]

Yes, and people have taken that to an absurd end, an end in which 90% of the wealth is in the hands of 10% of the people, and that 10% have rigged the laws so that even more money is channeled up to them.

Don't confuse money with wealth. True wealth has tangible value even when economies crumble (as ours soon will). A lot of money has concentrated in the hands of the (very) rich, precisely because they've not been generating wealth. It'll eventually evaporate, much as the housing bubble burst. We need to make sure those who took the risks and reaped the rewards are the ones who feel the sting of the coming correction. My biggest beef with the bailout is that the honest taxpayers were the ones who paid for the mistakes of the speculators. It's bad policy. I do not begrudge an entrepreneur who creates wealth his money.

Why are you so smug about protecting the possessions of people when the founders of this country slaughtered the indigenous owners of the country and STOLE everything from them?

My wife and kids are descended from indigenous people, but because of tribal racism, can't be recognized as tribe members because their blood isn't pure enough. Many natives simply assimilated into a better way of life...but that doesn't really find it's way into the history books. A white woman married a Cherokee man in 1800s Georgia and they WEREN'T ostracized! How did that happen?

Our greed-based culture values money and the right to accumulate it over life itself.

Being new, I don't know if you support a woman's right to choose, but there are many who do. I make a similar argument w.r.t. abortion.

But sticking with economic systems, pure capitalism doesn't work. Socialism doesn't work. Communism doesn't work. The only thing that seems to work is well regulated capitalism. The question is how much regulation is enough, and how much is too much?

 

[GenSeneca]

pure capitalism doesn't work.

Capitalism is the only system that will work.

Perhaps you, like so many others, associate Capitalism with Anarchy?

Capitalism calls for a strong government but one that is limited to a specific role, to protect our individual rights. That means protecting us from force and fraud whether the threat is economic or social.

The only thing that seems to work is well regulated capitalism.

There is only one "regulation" that is necessary, the protection of individual rights. No other regualtions are necessary.

 

[Gipper]

The only thing that seems to work is well regulated capitalism. The question is how much regulation is enough, and how much is too much?

I agree with much of your post, but this last item I do not.

We have an overly regulated economy now and it is an awful failure.

Government needs to constraint their actions and limit them to oversight only and make sure the rule of law is abided by. We now have such a distorted socialist/progressive system any resemblance to capitalism is hard to find.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

I live to serve

Yeah...yourself.

You make that all-too-obvious.

​

 

[GenSeneca]

Yeah...yourself.

You make that all-too-obvious.

​

Whom do you serve?