Whats wrong with 4million jobs created?

[Bunz]

This is some of the waste.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/02/gop.stimulus.worries/index.html

Well lets have a look at them. From the CNN website you mentioned.

• $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.

Clean coal technology...wasnt this one of the champions of the GOP?

• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.

It certainly helps the entertainment business, which in terms takes the collective American minds of the mess our current President was left with by the previous one.

• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

Having needed a converter box myself, and knowing the demand for the product, despite the mandate from the feds that we all switch over, they need to help gover the cost. When I did it, it was %50, that seems reasonable to me.

• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

I dont understand how this is waste at all. Firstly, icebreakers make ways through the ice for commerce. They also rescue ships in very dire straights who are engaged in fishing or transportation, or research operations. We need double the amount of icebreakers we currently have.

• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.
• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

How typical for the GOP to create the third largest federal department and complain about actually funding it.

• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

Wait a minute, everyone on the right is complains about GM and Ford needing a bailout, and they cant compete etc, when here is the feds putting thier money where thier mouth is. The federal budget for fuel to fill those vehicles will go down considerably.

• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

Yeah, shame to see a potential cure for AIDS.

• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.

Id invite anyone to come visit western Alaska, Ill show you around the local landfills. I cant imagine they are any better in the lower 48.

• $125 million for the Washington sewer system.

• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

Well Congress and the feds are responsible for the facilities in DC. I for one love visiting the various Smithsonians while I am there. The highlights of my trip.

• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

Not sure why a census has to cost this much, but I would rather it be thorough and accurate.

• $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

I would bet the 75mill would potentially save 10x as much in health care costs in the long run.

• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

I fail to see how this is a problem.

• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

This is a hoot, the GOP wants the FBI and keep us safe but not pay for it. Typical.

• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

This one should be quadrupled.

• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

Does anyone remember the cost of the flood in the early 90s that flooded the Miss drainage, I bet this will be an excellent investment.

• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

WooHoo, 10million, but its a waste When a few large neighborhoods are flooded as a result of this not happening, everyone will be saying how tragic the situation is.

• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.

Yeah, hate to continue to blow billions in utility costs annually on antiquated buildings.

• $500 million for state and local fire stations.

The GOP is complaining about fire stations? Seriously? Yeah screw those first responders.

• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.

See above, but also, they complain about fire management, but at the same time push for more logging. Those trees, continue to get bigger until one of two things happens, they are cut down, or are burned.

• $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.

What a shame.

• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

Yeah nothing like giving decent space for PHS, doesnt anyone know birdflu is coming to kill us all?

• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.

Dont worry, we can cure cancer, and a ton of other diseases without the additional lab space.

• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

I dont even know what this is, so Ill save my comments.

• $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

Yeah those VISTA volunteers making 200 a month, screw them.

• $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.

I love the GOP for this one, lets send the troops to war, but as soon as they get wounded, they are on thier own.

• $850 million for Amtrak.

I wish Amtrak operated in Alaska. Fact of the matter is that we are much to reliant on air and road travel and the Europeans and Japanese have a much better system in regards to train travel. I wish we would learn from them.

• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.

Your right, lets have more lead pain, but forget about funding the CDC when they get cancer.

• $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.

Yeah, nothing like having to limit ones training time when we are battling terrorists. I cant believe this made the GOP list of wasteful spending.

• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.

Yeah, screw the FSA, and thier computers. Just plant more.

• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.

This is an issue? Imagine the technology that can be developed for the military when it comes to alternative energy. Instead of having to wait for the supply lines and fuel to show up, increasing the time when various vehicles are otherwise out of combat, that they are not beholden to the amount of fuel in the tank, but otherwise the amount of ammo for the guns.

 

[Bunz]

Do the math. Nearly 300K per job?

Palerider,
It has been awhile since I had the opportunity to debate you directly, but cetainly you are wiser than to simply do the math when it comes to this. In this case the various jobs created or saved have a much more complicated equation than just a simple division question.

 

[Bunz]

The manner they go about it (assuming it even creates 4 million jobs, which is a big if) is not sustainable. We cannot simply throw money at every problem until it goes away, because they never do.

It worked for the Bush administration, I mean just look at how Iraq is turning out. Spend more money and the situation improves. Buy off the Sunni insurgents and they stop fighting.

 

[Bunz]

There's quite a few liberals on this forum that I know don't make money...
Pop quiz! Who do you think they are?

I dont know, how about you tell us here HankHill, please tell us who isnt making any money.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

There's quite a few liberals on this forum that I know don't make money...

 

[Mr. Shaman]

As noted, the economy was on the rebound before FDR put in any kind of economic legislation.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight......and, Bill Clinton benefitted from Daddy Bush's economy....and, Obama is already benefitting from Lil' Dumbya's economy.


​

 

[palerider]

Palerider,
It has been awhile since I had the opportunity to debate you directly, but cetainly you are wiser than to simply do the math when it comes to this. In this case the various jobs created or saved have a much more complicated equation than just a simple division question.

I'm sure that a very large number of people wish that it were more complicated than that, but it isn't. Obama is touting 3 or 4 million jobs.

The fact is that money in the pockets of the American people is what will bring us out of this slowdown and the best idea I have heard so far is a tax holiday for 6 months or so. Of course, that isn't going to happen because the dems in congress want to pick the winners and losers rather than let the market itself decide.

 

[palerider]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight......and, Bill Clinton benefitted from Daddy Bush's economy....and, Obama is already benefitting from Lil' Dumbya's economy.


​

Tell you what. How about you tell us what clinton did to improve "his" economy. Tell us about some legislation, or executive orders, or anything else he did to bring about the "clinton" economy.

 

[Pandora]

Then we are in agreement, after 8 years of heavy defecit spending, we have little choice but to continue the march to save the economy.

No we are not in agreement, if spending got us into this mess…….more spending is not going to get us out. That is much like saying I got a real bad hang over from to much drinking last night, the cure must be more drinking.

Well it certainly has quite a bit to do with the situation that resulted from Katrina. Literally tens of thousands of illegal workers showed up and worked for contractors on government bids. While I dont know first hand, but I think the result of that fiasco might have something to do with this.

Katrina’s problems had more to do with a horrible governor and a horrible mayor who could not plan their way out of a paper bag. We are STILL paying for people to stay in motels. The people there don’t understand taking care of their self, they only understand the government taking care of them.

Pandora,
My intention was not to insult you or anyone, I think you know from most of my posts that being abusive isnt my intention. But the fact of the matter is that when working with the unions, we know that the vast majority of thier employees are legal workers, and thier work is backed by the union, and the union has enough of a ready workforce to do the job. Whereas when working with non-union folks, they dont necessarily have any of the three things I mentioned.

I agree you probably were not trying to insult anyone but it is not accurate to say that union workers are the better way to go or the only way to go and it is absolutely wrong to say that all tax payers, non union workers included will have to pay for the rest of their lives and their children and children’s, children’s lives so that union workers can get something. Also it’s a myth that union workers hire legal workers only, my union has hired at least 4 illegal workers that I know of, and I work for the frakin government.

When half a million people lose thier jobs in a month, and the situation is going to stay the same or get worse until for the time being, then yes I would say the situation is pretty dire.

Exactly, so why make the actual “stim” part of the bill not come online till late 2010 if things are this dire?

The states as we know them will be beyond backrupt, the feds stepping in have a very positive effect on the various states that are in really bad financial

situations. Alaska, with literally billions in the bank, is not looking good at all right now.

Perhaps states should learn to act like people? I have cut back, I have had to look at my house hold budget and trim the unneeded items, why should states not also have to do the same, heck why should the feds not have to do the same. A friend of mine who works with me told me her husband took a huge pay cut to be able to keep his job. Her and I will not have to do that, we work for the government and as long as there are suckers out there like you who we can bleed I will always get my pay raise. That is crazy, government should take the same pay cuts that the private sector takes, in fact they should take them BEFORE the private sector takes them. but you wont see anyone high up in government taking a pay cut from the constant raises (that they gave themselves)

I hope you are wrong on this account. If he deserves impeachment, then by all means impeach the man, but if you are referring to the other reason why he may not be in office, please dont mention it. We dont need any further scrutiny from the various federal agencies like the NSA, CIA, FBI or Secret Service.

I am referring to people kicking him out of office, it’s been less than a month, and it turns out he isn’t the gift the world expected. Only his hard core groupies are defending the queer things he is doing. He should be getting a double honeymoon for all of fan fair over him but instead other countries are telling him where he can stick it and congress phone lines are over loaded with complaints.


So in the end bunz, are you defending this “stim” bill and all the stuff in it?

The back door health care

Giving jobs to only certain groups and telling the others shut up and just pay for it

The massive pork projects?

It seems like you are but perhaps you are just playing devils advocate?

 

[Andy]

Tell you what. How about you tell us what clinton did to improve "his" economy. Tell us about some legislation, or executive orders, or anything else he did to bring about the "clinton" economy.

I can answer that! NAFTA!

I love that question because the answer is the one thing the left universally hate. Free-trade with Mexico!

 

[palerider]

I can answer that! NAFTA!

I love that question because the answer is the one thing the left universally hate. Free-trade with Mexico!

I am afraid that nafta doesn't answer the question though. The fact is that the only thing clinton did was nothing.

 

[Andy]

Clean coal technology...wasnt this one of the champions of the GOP?

Like any good administrator, you always check to see if your investment is yielding results. Unlike a democrat that would keep funding a failed project as a political payoff, Bush discovered in review, the company was not producing any returns. Of course, that's not a problem for Obama.

It certainly helps the entertainment business, which in terms takes the collective American minds of the mess our current President was left with by the previous one.

Now that's brilliant. Instead of dealing with the problems, let's have government sponsored entertainment. Sound like the Roman empire just before Collapse. Next you'll be supporting live executions of Christians being fed to lions.

Having needed a converter box myself, and knowing the demand for the product, despite the mandate from the feds that we all switch over, they need to help gover the cost. When I did it, it was %50, that seems reasonable to me.

It's exactly this type of logic that is the reason we are so in debt. Government makes a mandate that costs the consumer money. Then because their government control over our lives costs us money, they give public cash to help cover that cost... never mind they got that cash from us to begin with. Then we have ******* people support it. Another brilliant move.

I dont understand how this is waste at all. Firstly, icebreakers make ways through the ice for commerce. They also rescue ships in very dire straights who are engaged in fishing or transportation, or research operations. We need double the amount of icebreakers we currently have.

You really don't get it do you. Every single thing in the world can be justified in some way. I can think up a dozen different projects the government should do, and justify the billions spent on each one. The whole point here is, THE FEDS ARE BROKE! They don't have money for this, or anything else.

And you are such a hypocrite on this issue. In this very thread you complain about overspending by Bush. Here Obama is blowing nearly a trillion dollars, and you are justifying each one. Hey Bunz, why didn't you justify each Budget bush passed? It had all the same pork spending. Why? Cause you are a hypocrite.

How typical for the GOP to create the third largest federal department and complain about actually funding it.

Personally I don't think it's necessary. I wasn't all that wild about the Department of Homeland Security anyway, other than I had assumed by consolidating departments, it would reduce cost, not increase it.

Nevertheless, you are still missing the point that this is supposed to be a stimulus package. Do tell how this expenditure fits into (according to Obama) economic stimulus package? What part of the economy is going to be permanently stimulated by building another government building?

Wait a minute, everyone on the right is complains about GM and Ford needing a bailout, and they cant compete etc, when here is the feds putting thier money where thier mouth is. The federal budget for fuel to fill those vehicles will go down considerably.

We've already covered this. No matter how you do the math, the added cost of a hybrid vehicle, does not ever repay the value of the fuel saved. You never break even. So we're going to save a dime worth in gas, by spending a few thousand in car. That's going to cost us more in new taxes, than it will save.

Snipped the rest of your blaw blaw blaw.

You know Bunz, my view of you has dropped dramatically. You now come across as a political hack, rather than a thinking individual.

None of that stuff was an economic stimulus. And further, none of it was absolutely necessary. Moreover, none of it was had anything to do with stimulating the economy. Finely, none of it do we have money to pay for.

All that stuff you said about Bush over spending, I never want to hear it from you again. I'm going to remind you of this post, each and every single time you bring it up.

You will justify anything, so long as Obama pushes for it, even if you slam Bush for the same exact thing.

 

[Bunz]

I'm sure that a very large number of people wish that it were more complicated than that, but it isn't. Obama is touting 3 or 4 million jobs.

The fact is that money in the pockets of the American people is what will bring us out of this slowdown and the best idea I have heard so far is a tax holiday for 6 months or so. Of course, that isn't going to happen because the dems in congress want to pick the winners and losers rather than let the market itself decide.

A tax holiday for 6 months? With zero income, how can we expect to fund operations in Iraq?

 

[Bunz]

No we are not in agreement, if spending got us into this mess…….more spending is not going to get us out. That is much like saying I got a real bad hang over from to much drinking last night, the cure must be more drinking.

I am not sure we have any choice but to borrow our way out of this problem.
Each time in the modern history of this country, when faced with a recession, the feds spending more money has worked, leaving things to the market and doing nothing is what happened in 1929.

Katrina’s problems had more to do with a horrible governor and a horrible mayor who could not plan their way out of a paper bag. We are STILL paying for people to stay in motels. The people there don’t understand taking care of their self, they only understand the government taking care of them.

I think you and I will agree that Katrina and aftermath were nothing short of a fiasco. I couldnt imagine putting myself in a similar situation, I am patiently awaiting a volcanic eruption, and have been busy getting wood for next year just so I am prepared.
But a few things to note here that is relavent to the topic. Firstly, the levys that failed were under the control of the Army Corps of Engineers, and had been warned for at least a decade that they wouldnt hold up to a Katrina like storm. So the feds certainly have a hand in this, but my original point was that with the free for all when it came to rebuilding had little control, so the result was that literally tens of thousands of illegals showed up and were put to work, whereas probably an equal amount of otherwise qualified people who had lived in NOLA were displaced and missed out on the work. So it was a double wammy of failure in that regard.
As for Ray Nagin, and Kathleen Blanco, they failed in thier respect, no question.

I agree you probably were not trying to insult anyone but it is not accurate to say that union workers are the better way to go or the only way to go and it is absolutely wrong to say that all tax payers, non union workers included will have to pay for the rest of their lives and their children and children’s, children’s lives so that union workers can get something. Also it’s a myth that union workers hire legal workers only, my union has hired at least 4 illegal workers that I know of, and I work for the frakin government.

Without knowing how those illegals managed through the system, it probably came as a result of fake papers of various kinds. What I am talking about is day labor, often paid cash in wages without paying a lick of taxes.
I am not uber pro-union. I am not a member of any of them. Although I am a part of a marketing program with my fishing business...eat more salmon!!!

Exactly, so why make the actual “stim” part of the bill not come online till late 2010 if things are this dire?

As I said before it probably has something to do with the availability of raw materials, but I am not sure.

Perhaps states should learn to act like people? I have cut back, I have had to look at my house hold budget and trim the unneeded items, why should states not also have to do the same, heck why should the feds not have to do the same. A friend of mine who works with me told me her husband took a huge pay cut to be able to keep his job. Her and I will not have to do that, we work for the government and as long as there are suckers out there like you who we can bleed I will always get my pay raise. That is crazy, government should take the same pay cuts that the private sector takes, in fact they should take them BEFORE the private sector takes them. but you wont see anyone high up in government taking a pay cut from the constant raises (that they gave themselves)

I dont disagree, to a certain extent. I certainly have cut back, and I have said before that congress should work on something of a flat tax, and it is a flucuating one, similar to how a city council moves the mill rate on property tax annually to cover expenses.

I am referring to people kicking him out of office, it’s been less than a month, and it turns out he isn’t the gift the world expected. Only his hard core groupies are defending the queer things he is doing. He should be getting a double honeymoon for all of fan fair over him but instead other countries are telling him where he can stick it and congress phone lines are over loaded with complaints.

Well give him some time, he hasnt done anything questionable when it comes to legal issues to justify impeachment(that I am aware of) when the time comes, you might see a change in my opinion.

So in the end bunz, are you defending this “stim” bill and all the stuff in it?

The back door health care

Giving jobs to only certain groups and telling the others shut up and just pay for it

The massive pork projects?

It seems like you are but perhaps you are just playing devils advocate?

Certainly a fair amount of devils advocate, especially in my addressing the issues the GOP sees as wasteful. But I am afraid in all seriousness that we are backed into a corner and there isnt much other choice. Doing nothing has the potential to do much greater harm.

 

[Bunz]

You know Bunz, my view of you has dropped dramatically. You now come across as a political hack, rather than a thinking individual.

Boy did I get you stirred up or what? Thats alright though, it didnt take to much. Ease up a bit there buddy, we are all here for debate. Dont take yourself to serious.

A few things I will say though, is that adding hybrids to the federal fleet is a good idea in my mind. We need a headquarters of DHS, and to largely upgrade our infastructure for capacity and safety reasons. There is no reason our education facilities cant be right up in the top in the world.

If you think this stim package is so bad, what would you do instead? One thing I am fairly convinced of is that doing nothing is no longer an option.