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Breakfast with a Lib
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ASPCA4EVER
Well-Known Member
Who on earth told you the government was "taking over" or "socializing" health care???? A public option is just an (now read my lips) OPTION. If you like it you opt for it., if not - don't. Now please don't come back with that old saw that this is just a step in the door. That's just foolish.
ASPCA4EVER
Well-Known Member
Good Point...but that argument would be as simplistic as making the 'RIGHT WINGED NUT JOBS' understand that 'PRO CHOICE' doesn't mean that every one HAS TO HAVE AN OBORTION TOO. But then expecting those fervent religious fanatics to READ and COMPREHEND would be having high expectations
Mare Tranquillity
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Why is it socialism for the government to take money to care for sick Americans, but it's not socialism for the government to take money to kill people in 3rd world countries?
I would like my tax money to go to health care and I don't want it to go to killing people. Why don't the people who are against health care speak to this point? Don't I recall something in the founding documents about providing for the general welfare of the people--or was it common good? What could be a more common good that making sure that everyone could have health care?
I would like my tax money to go to health care and I don't want it to go to killing people. Why don't the people who are against health care speak to this point? Don't I recall something in the founding documents about providing for the general welfare of the people--or was it common good? What could be a more common good that making sure that everyone could have health care?
Pandora
Well-Known Member
I am all for taxes for the right reasons
protecting our country through the military, running the government
highways... all the reasons taxes began in the first place.
its the social programs I do not think we should be forced to pay for.
I am all for states who want to do it. States rights, if a state wants to be socialist and decides it through voting that is ok with me, its a states right.
its the federal government doing it that bothers me so much. I can always move from a state to another state. I am not leaving my country.
GenSeneca
Well-Known Member
While that's a popular talking point, its incorrect. We would all pay for the public option whether or not we actually used the service, like welfare or unemployment. In its most recent public form, we would all pay higher taxes for 4 years before the "option" would even be available.
Also, the public option would eventually put private healthcare insurance providers out of business... I know there are many who think that would be a good thing but government monopolies in any sector of the economy is dangerous to our liberties.
Elected Democrat leaders are counting on a public option to put the private insurance industry out of business. Dismissing facts as "foolish", when Democrats make no secret of their intentions, is an act of deception:
Stalin
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One conservative who saw a lot of corruption in the private sector was Ronald Reagan, much of it from his own staff
"..Ronald Reagan's Criminal Administration:
"By the end of his term, 138 Reagan administration officials had been convicted, had been indicted, or had been the subject of official investigations for official misconduct and/or criminal violations. In terms of number of officials involved, the record of his administration was the worst ever."
from p. 184,Sleep-Walking Through History: America in the Reagan Years, by Haynes Johnson, (1991, Doubleday), as are the examples below:
James Watt, Reagan's Secretary of the Interior was indicted on 41 felony counts for using connections at the Department of Housing and Urban Development to help his private clients seek federal funds for housing projects in Maryland, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands. Watt conceded that he had received $500,000 from clients who were granted very favorable housing contracts after he had intervened on their behalf. In testifying before a House committee Watt said: "That's what they offered and it sounded like a lot of money to me, and we settled on it." Watt was eventually sentenced to five years in prison and 500 hours of community service.
Although not convicted, Edwin Meese III, resigned as Reagan's Attorney General after having been the subject of investigations by the United States Office of the Independent Counsel on two occasions (Wedtech and Iran-Contra), during the 3 short years he was in office.
E. Bob Wallach, close friend and law classmate of Attorney General Edwin Meese, was sentenced to six years in prison and fined $250,000 in connection with the Wedtech influence-peddling scandal.
Lyn Nofziger – Convicted on charges of illegal lobbying of White House in Wedtech scandal.
Michael Deaver received three years' probation and was fined one hundred thousand dollars after being convicted for lying to a congressional subcommittee and a federal grand jury about his lobbying activities after leaving the White House.
The Iran-Contra scandal. In June, 1984, at a National Security Council meeting, CIA Director Casey urged President Reagan to seek third-party aid for the Nicaraguan contras. Secretary of State Schultz warned that it would be an "impeachable offense" if the U.S. government acted as conduit for such secret funding. But that didn't stop them. That same day, Oliver North was seeking third-party aid for the contras. But Reagan, the "teflon President" avoided serious charges or impeachment.
Casper Weinberger was Secretary of Defense during Iran-Contra. In June 1992 he was indicted by a federal grand jury on charges of concealing from congressional investigators and prosecutors thousands of pages of his handwritten notes. The personal memoirs taken during high level meetings, detailed events in 1985 and 1986 involving the Iran-Contra affair. Weinberger claimed he was being unfairly prosecuted because he would not provide information incriminating Ronald Reagan. Weinberger was scheduled to go on trial January 5, 1993, where the contents of his notes would have come to light and may have implicated other, unindicted conspirators. While Weinberger was never directly linked to the covert operations phase of the Iran-Contra affair, he is believed to have been involved in the cover-up of the ensuing scandal. According to Special Prosecutor Lawrence Walsh, Weinberger's notes contain evidence of a conspiracy among the highest ranking Reagan Administration officials to lie to congress and the American public. Some of the notes are believed to have evidence against then Vice-President George Bush who pardoned Weinberger to keep him from going to trial.
Raymond Donovan, Secretary of Labor indicted for defrauding the New York City Transit Authority of $7.4. million.
{ Republicans will point out that Donovan was acquitted. And that really matters in Donovan's case, because he was a Republican. But it didn't matter for Clinton or any of his cabinet, most all of whom were acquitted, because they were Democrats!}
Elliott Abrams was appointed by President Reagan in 1985 to head the State Department's Latin American Bureau. He was closely linked with ex-White House aide Lt. Col. Oliver North's covert movement to aid the Contras. Working for North, Abrams coordinated inter-agency support for the contras and helped solicit illegal funding from foreign powers as well as domestic contributors. Abrams agreed to cooperate with Iran-Contra investigators and pled guilty to two charges reduced to misdemeanors. He was sentenced in 1991 to two years probation and 100 hours of community service but was pardoned by President George Bush.
Robert C. McFarlane was appointed Ronald Reagan's National Security Advisor in October 1983 and become well-known as a champion of the MX missile program in his role as White House liaison to congress. In 1984, Mc Farlane initiated the review of U.S. policy towards Iran that led directly to the arms for hostages deal. He also supervised early National Security Council efforts to support the Contras. Shortly after the Iran-Contra scandal was revealed in early 1987, McFarlane took an overdose of the tranquilizer Valium in an attempt to end his life. In his own words: "What really drove me to despair was a sense of having failed the country." McFarlane pled guilty to four misdemeanors and was sentenced to two years probation and 200 hours of community service. He was also fined $20,000. He received a blanket pardon from President George Bush.
Oliver North – Convicted of falsifying and destroying documents, accepting an illegal gratuity, and aiding and abetting the obstruction of Congress. Conviction overturned on appeal due to legal technicalities.
John Poindexter, Reagan's national security advisor, – guilty of five criminal counts involving conspiracy to mislead Congress, obstructing congressional inquiries, lying to lawmakers, used "high national security" to mask deceit and wrong-doing.
Richard Secord pleaded guilty to a felony charge of lying to Congress over Iran-Contra.
Alan D. Fiers was the Chief of the Central Intelligence Agency's Central American Task Force. Fiers pled guilty in 1991 to two counts of withholding information from congress about Oliver North's activities and the diversion of Iran arms sale money to aid the Contras. He was sentenced to one year of probation and 100 hours of community service. Fiers agreed to cooperate with prosecutors in exchange for having his felonies reduced to misdemeanors and his testimony gave a boost to the long standing criminal investigation of Lawrence Walsh, Special Prosecutor. Fiers testified that he and three CIA colleagues knew by mid-1986 that profits from the TOW and HAWK missile sales to Iran were being diverted to the Contras months before it became public knowledge. Alan Fiers received a blanket pardon for his crimes from President Bush.
more reagan corruption follows
Stalin
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Clair George was Chief of the CIA's Division of Covert Operations under President Reagan. In August 1992 a hung jury led U.S. District Judge Royce Lamberth to declare a mistrial in the case of Clair George who was accused of concealing from Congress his knowledge of the Iran-Contra affair. George had been named by Alan Fiers when Fiers turned state's evidence for Lawrence Walsh's investigation. In a second trial on charges of perjury, false statements and obstruction of justice, George was convicted of lying to two congressional committees in 1986. George faced a maximum five year federal prison sentence and a $20,000 fine for each of the two convictions. Jurors cleared George of five other charges including two counts of lying to a federal grand jury. Those charges would have carried a mandatory 10 months in prison upon conviction. Clair George received a blanket pardon for his crimes from President George Bush.
Duane R. (Dewey) Clarridge was head of the CIA's Western European Division under President Reagan. He was indicted on November 29, 1991 for lying to congress and to the Tower Commission that investigated Iran- Contra. Clarridge was charged with five counts of perjury and two counts of making false statements for covering up his knowledge of a November 25, 1985 shipment of HAWK missiles to Iran. Clarridge was also suspected of diverting to the Contras weapons that were originally intended for the Afghan mujahaddeen guerrillas. Clarridge received a blanket pardon for his crimes on Christmas Eve 1992 from President George Bush.
Environmental Protection Agency's favoritism toward polluters. Assistant administrator unduly influenced by chemical industry lobbyists. Another administrator resigned after pressuring employees to tone down a critical report on a chemical company accused of illegal pollution in Michigan. The deputy chief of federal activities was accused of compiling an interagency "hit" or "enemies" list, like those kept in the Nixon Watergate period, singling out career employees to be hired, fired or promoted according to political beliefs.
Anne Gorscuh Burford resigned amid accusations she politically manipulated the Superfund money.
Rita Lavelle was fired after accusing a senior EPA official of "systematically alienating the business community." She was later indicted, tried and convicted of lying to Congress and served three months of a six-month prison sentence. After an extensive investigation, in August 1984, a House of Representatives subcommittee concluded that top-level EPA appointees by Reagan for three years "violated their public trust by disregarding the public health and the environment, manipulating the Superfund program for political purposes, engaging in unethical conduct and participating in other abuses.".
Neglected nuclear safety. A critical situation involving nuclear safety had been allowed to develop during the Reagan era. Immense sums, estimated at 200 billion or more, would be required in the 1990s to replace and make safe America's neglected, aging, deteriorating, and dangerous nuclear facilities.
Savings & Loan Bail-out. Hundreds of billions of dollars were needed to bail out savings and loan institutions that either had failed during the deregulation frenzy of the eighties or were in danger of bankruptcy.
Reckless airline deregulation. Deregulation of airline industry took too broad a sweep, endangering public safety.
Additionally:
Richard Allen, National Security adviser resigned amid controversy over an honorarium he received for arranging an interview with Nancy Reagan.
Richard Beggs, chief administrator at NASA was indicted for defrauding the government while an executive at General Dynamics.
Guy Flake, Deputy Secretary of Commerce, resigned after allegations of a conflict of interest in contract negotiations.
Louis Glutfrida, Director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency resigned amid allegations of misuses of government property.
Edwin Gray, Chairman of the Federal Home Loan Bank was charged with illegally repaying himself and his wife $26,000 in travel costs.
Max Hugel, CIA chief of covert operations who resigned after allegations of fraudulent financial dealings.
Carlos Campbell, Assistant Secretary of Commerce resigned over charges of awarding federal grants to his personal friends' firms.
John Fedders, chief of enforcement for the Securities and Exchange Commission resigned over charges of beating his wife.
Arthur Hayes, Commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration resigned over illegal travel reimbursements.
J. Lynn Helms, chief of the Federal Aviation Administration resigned over a grand jury investigation of illegal business activities.
Marjory Mecklenburg, Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Resources resigned over irregularities on her travel vouchers.
Robert Nimmo, head of the Veterans Administration resigned when a report criticized him for improper use of government funds.
J. William Petro, U.S. Attorney fired and fined for tipping off an acquaintance about a forthcoming Grand Jury investigation.
Thomas C. Reed, White House counselor and National Security Council adviser resigned and paid a $427,000 fine for stock market insider trading.
Emanuel Savas, Assistant Secretary of HUD resigned over assigning staff members to work on government time on a book that guilty to expense account fraud and accepting kickbacks on government contracts.
Charles Wick, Director of the U.S. Information Agency investigated for taping conversations with public officials without their approval.
As of March 27, 2007, it was only an indictment, but Bloomberg News was reporting that David Stockman, President Reagan's budget director, was indicted on charges of defrauding investors and banks of $1.6 billion while chairman of Collins & Aikman Corp., an auto parts maker that collapsed days after he quit.
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/Reagan.html
Comrade Stalin
Duane R. (Dewey) Clarridge was head of the CIA's Western European Division under President Reagan. He was indicted on November 29, 1991 for lying to congress and to the Tower Commission that investigated Iran- Contra. Clarridge was charged with five counts of perjury and two counts of making false statements for covering up his knowledge of a November 25, 1985 shipment of HAWK missiles to Iran. Clarridge was also suspected of diverting to the Contras weapons that were originally intended for the Afghan mujahaddeen guerrillas. Clarridge received a blanket pardon for his crimes on Christmas Eve 1992 from President George Bush.
Environmental Protection Agency's favoritism toward polluters. Assistant administrator unduly influenced by chemical industry lobbyists. Another administrator resigned after pressuring employees to tone down a critical report on a chemical company accused of illegal pollution in Michigan. The deputy chief of federal activities was accused of compiling an interagency "hit" or "enemies" list, like those kept in the Nixon Watergate period, singling out career employees to be hired, fired or promoted according to political beliefs.
Anne Gorscuh Burford resigned amid accusations she politically manipulated the Superfund money.
Rita Lavelle was fired after accusing a senior EPA official of "systematically alienating the business community." She was later indicted, tried and convicted of lying to Congress and served three months of a six-month prison sentence. After an extensive investigation, in August 1984, a House of Representatives subcommittee concluded that top-level EPA appointees by Reagan for three years "violated their public trust by disregarding the public health and the environment, manipulating the Superfund program for political purposes, engaging in unethical conduct and participating in other abuses.".
Neglected nuclear safety. A critical situation involving nuclear safety had been allowed to develop during the Reagan era. Immense sums, estimated at 200 billion or more, would be required in the 1990s to replace and make safe America's neglected, aging, deteriorating, and dangerous nuclear facilities.
Savings & Loan Bail-out. Hundreds of billions of dollars were needed to bail out savings and loan institutions that either had failed during the deregulation frenzy of the eighties or were in danger of bankruptcy.
Reckless airline deregulation. Deregulation of airline industry took too broad a sweep, endangering public safety.
Additionally:
Richard Allen, National Security adviser resigned amid controversy over an honorarium he received for arranging an interview with Nancy Reagan.
Richard Beggs, chief administrator at NASA was indicted for defrauding the government while an executive at General Dynamics.
Guy Flake, Deputy Secretary of Commerce, resigned after allegations of a conflict of interest in contract negotiations.
Louis Glutfrida, Director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency resigned amid allegations of misuses of government property.
Edwin Gray, Chairman of the Federal Home Loan Bank was charged with illegally repaying himself and his wife $26,000 in travel costs.
Max Hugel, CIA chief of covert operations who resigned after allegations of fraudulent financial dealings.
Carlos Campbell, Assistant Secretary of Commerce resigned over charges of awarding federal grants to his personal friends' firms.
John Fedders, chief of enforcement for the Securities and Exchange Commission resigned over charges of beating his wife.
Arthur Hayes, Commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration resigned over illegal travel reimbursements.
J. Lynn Helms, chief of the Federal Aviation Administration resigned over a grand jury investigation of illegal business activities.
Marjory Mecklenburg, Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Resources resigned over irregularities on her travel vouchers.
Robert Nimmo, head of the Veterans Administration resigned when a report criticized him for improper use of government funds.
J. William Petro, U.S. Attorney fired and fined for tipping off an acquaintance about a forthcoming Grand Jury investigation.
Thomas C. Reed, White House counselor and National Security Council adviser resigned and paid a $427,000 fine for stock market insider trading.
Emanuel Savas, Assistant Secretary of HUD resigned over assigning staff members to work on government time on a book that guilty to expense account fraud and accepting kickbacks on government contracts.
Charles Wick, Director of the U.S. Information Agency investigated for taping conversations with public officials without their approval.
As of March 27, 2007, it was only an indictment, but Bloomberg News was reporting that David Stockman, President Reagan's budget director, was indicted on charges of defrauding investors and banks of $1.6 billion while chairman of Collins & Aikman Corp., an auto parts maker that collapsed days after he quit.
http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/about/Reagan.html
Comrade Stalin
GenSeneca
Well-Known Member
That's a redistribution of wealth, taking from those who can afford it and transferring it to those who cannot.
That is not a redistribution of wealth, we are protecting the interests of our allies as well as our own interests. I disagree with nation building but I support efforts to protect our trade partners and international trade routes from invasion and piracy.
Does it have to be on a federal level or would you be OK with it being on the state level?
One just did.
The general welfare and the "common good" are not the same thing:
"With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." – James Madison
"“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people" - James Madison
"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison
"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." - Thomas Jefferson
The federal government is specifically limited in its power where the "general welfare" is concerned and as Madison pointed out, the federal governments limitation in the general welfare are external but there are no limits placed on states to provide for the general welfare of their citizens as they see fit.
GenSeneca
Well-Known Member
Federal government subsidizes the public option through taxation whereas private insurers are limited to their customers for income. I.E., Everyone pays for the public option whether or not they use it and whether or not they also pay for insurance through the private sector. Financially, that is a big bonus for government, they have no limit on their revenue base while private insurance is limited only to those who choose to purchase their product.
Government also doesn't need to make a profit to stay in business. So the government option can undercut their private sector competition, putting them out of business because government can operate their option in the red (bankruptcy) whereas the private sector needs to make a profit to stay in business.
Government also gets to write the rules by which private insurance must operate while exempting themselves from abiding by the same rules... It would be like playing a basketball game where the private insurers are on one team and they are limited in where they can travel on the court etc. The government team also serves as referees for the game, so they can change the rules, or make calls as they see fit, and have an entirely different set of rules for themselves with no one to call them for fouls.
Mare Tranquillity
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The problem is that when one State gives full health care to all, then people who have no health care will move to that State and overwhelm it completely. It will become common practice for States to give indigent people prepaid tickets to the State where health care is available--this is being done in a manner of speaking now when hospitals put people into taxis and pay for them to taken away and dumped.
Only on a national level would a program of universal coverage work adequately. What I don't understand is why so many people are unwilling to help their fellow countrymen. Aren't people more important than money?
In my opinion the wars you note are not protecting us nearly as much as spending that money on rebuilding our infrastructure, advancing our techonology, and caring for our people would accomplish.
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pocketfullofshells
Well-Known Member
don't forget to ask this as well...Should we care if it did?
If they can't compete with hit, they sweet, it means we got a better deal
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