Ground zero mosque

[orogenicman]

From a poster on another forum. I thought it was an appropriate response to this issue:

"Here's what I think is the difference. Yelling fire in a crowded theater (assuming there isn't actually a fire, of course) serves no potential social, religious or political purpose. One does not protest a situation or comment on the status quo by yelling fire in a theater.

On the other hand, criticizing existing political, religious and social institutions may be very useful, in fact vital, to a free society. And yet such criticism is likely to annoy or even enrage people committed to those existing institutions. And so the existing institutions would LOVE to ban any criticism of themselves. And for this reason, any speech that can pass as social, political or religious commentary or protest is highly protected. It would be wonderful if there were some authority that could be trusted to make the distinction that THIS religious protest is valuable, whereas THAT religious protest is stupid. But there isn't, and history has taught us to err rather largely on the side of caution."

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I'll be adding that statement to the archives...

Clearly cops cause crime, if it were not for their policy of chasing, catching, and incarcerating criminals, there would be no crime.

And the shop keeper who gets robbed, it's his own damn fault for his policy of having things worth stealing in his store.

Let's also not forget that farmers cause hunger, plumbers cause water pipes to burst, firemen cause fires, electricians cause power outages, doctors cause illness, and dentists cause people to get cavities...

The policies of these evil bastards must be stopped!

I am sorry its such a hard concept for you to understand, that our actions cause reactions...and that your mind can't grasp the idea that just because our actions may cause a reaction...it does not make it the wrong or right choice...its a simple matter of fact...

 

[BigRob]

It does not have to be a issue, its about getting the base angry and fired up to get them to the polls....they don't realy care why they go, so long as there people go...if they have to attack some other Religion for it, so be it.

I assure you.. the "base" is going to show up regardless. This is not going to make or break that.

and Where did he blame the US for the attacks? I know he has said our policys are the cause...But its hard to say US policy is not the reason...Yes the Direct cause is, the terrorist, we know that, but our policies are what drive them...so yes we have to understand that our policy does in fact cause these attacks to happen. Even if our Policy is correct ( and often its not)

"Our" policies? OBL was upset (and he cites this) because the Saudi government allowed US troops to be based on "holy ground." You ignore that we were "invited" by the Saudi government, and went in with a UNSC mandate with the backing of a large part of the world.

You might want to rethink just what "our" policies means.

If US Policy was to not support Dictators in the middle east, and have our troops there, Sept 11 does not happen. we are not just targeted at random.

You act as if we just waltzed into Saudi Arabia and took over the place. That is false. We were invited in, and had a very clear UNSC mandate with the backing of many countries, many of which were Arab. This attempt to "blame the US" is disingenuous at best.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I assure you.. the "base" is going to show up regardless. This is not going to make or break that.



"Our" policies? OBL was upset (and he cites this) because the Saudi government allowed US troops to be based on "holy ground." You ignore that we were "invited" by the Saudi government, and went in with a UNSC mandate with the backing of a large part of the world.

You might want to rethink just what "our" policies means.



You act as if we just waltzed into Saudi Arabia and took over the place. That is false. We were invited in, and had a very clear UNSC mandate with the backing of many countries, many of which were Arab. This attempt to "blame the US" is disingenuous at best.

no I don't ignore that fact. I don't even say its was the wrong policy to take...I supported the war in Iraq the First time...However, that Policy directly caused support of Al quida to grow and was one of the key policies sited for the attack on 9-11...We don't have troops in SA....maybe there is no 9-11...US Policy in the middle east is a key cause of extremist attacks on Americans...regardless if they are correct policy choices or not.

 

[BigRob]

no I don't ignore that fact. I don't even say its was the wrong policy to take...I supported the war in Iraq the First time...However, that Policy directly caused support of Al quida to grow and was one of the key policies sited for the attack on 9-11...

Point is this. It was not an "American" policy to have soldiers in Saudi Arabia at that time. It was a Saudi policy, backed by a UNSC Resolution and supported by most of the world frankly.

We don't have troops in SA....maybe there is no 9-11...

I tend to doubt this.

US Policy in the middle east is a key cause of extremist attacks on Americans...regardless if they are correct policy choices or not.

No doubt there is blowback from our foreign policy choices. That does not mean that we cower in fear and fail to make the correct choices out of fear we might offend someone.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Point is this. It was not an "American" policy to have soldiers in Saudi Arabia at that time. It was a Saudi policy, backed by a UNSC Resolution and supported by most of the world frankly.




I tend to doubt this.



No doubt there is blowback from our foreign policy choices. That does not mean that we cower in fear and fail to make the correct choices out of fear we might offend someone.

and no place did I say we should cower in fear...But we do have to understand that our Action do have reactions, and not all are going to be good..and when we have people like Bush making up crap about how they hate us for our Freedom..and ignore that they hate us for our Policy...we are just asking to get hit again and again and not understand who we are fighting...

 

[dahermit]

I posted:

Originally Posted by dahermit
Why no Islamic attacks on Cuba, Canada, Poland, Norway, Finland, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Chile, Honduras, Switzerland, Sweden, Belize, Panama, Mexico, Japan, Romania, Bulgaria, Iceland, etc., etc.?
Because they hate our "freedom" (but do not hate Canada's)?
I would really like to know why they attack us as opposed to other countries.

You "answered":

Oh yes. Therein lies the problem.

Many Americans do not know we are at war with Islam. They started the war...well they tried with the first WTC bombing, but Bubba ignored it. Then our embassies and the USS Cole...and still Bubba ignored. So, then comes 9/11...and lots of dead Americans.

WE ARE AT WAR you DF liberals. (well in past wars some liberals were traitors....so I guess since history repeats itself, some libs will be traitors again)

And, lets understand the fallacy of "moderate" Islam. Yes, many American Muslims are moderate. But, Islam is NOT moderate. Moderate Islam is a myth. And this is proven by their actions every day, but some refuse to see the truth or even side with our enemies...aka traitorous liberals.

Wake up you fools before you get your heads cut off.

Either you did not read my post, can not read my post, are insane, or, etc., etc. Explain to me please, why the Muslims do not attack those other counties.

 

[Gipper]

I posted:



You "answered":



Either you did not read my post, can not read my post, are insane, or, etc., etc. Explain to me please, why the Muslims do not attack those other counties.

Its very simple. We are the world's only super power. Islam wants to be the world's only super power. So, they are at war with us. Get it?

Now you being a lib are going to claim its our policies which have caused them to hate us. Of course, this is total BS.

Remember the Barbary Pirates? If you do a little research you will find that the Islamists back then think just like the ones today. How about that? You just learned something you will NEVER EVER hear on your lib news outlets.

The truth will set you free. And, I am just the right guy to relieve you of those awful chains of liberalism.

 

[dahermit]

Its very simple. We are the world's only super power. Islam wants to be the world's only super power. So, they are at war with us. Get it?

Now you being a lib are going to claim its our policies which have caused them to hate us. Of course, this is total BS.

Remember the Barbary Pirates? If you do a little research you will find that the Islamists back then think just like the ones today. How about that? You just learned something you will NEVER EVER hear on your lib news outlets.

The truth will set you free. And, I am just the right guy to relieve you of those awful chains of liberalism.

Define: "Super Power". What do the Muslims say as to why they want to defeat the U.S.? Can you give references/links to Islamists stating that they want to be, " ...the world's only super power..."?

No, they have often stated that they want the U.S. presents and more importantly the U.S. influence out of the Middle East. They see us as an invasive species and want us out of their lives. They resent the influence American business (McDonald's, Nike, Mobile Oil, etc.), and culture (music), has had on their lives. They resent the fact that the U.S. aids, pays for, and supports Israel. They fear losing their Muslim traditions.
Want to be the "...only super power...", indeed.

Then there are the rich Muslims that live in Dubai, Saudi Arabia, etc. Like the rich everywhere, they may be Muslim, but they worship the dollar more and do not give a damn what the U.S. does.

Now, you have heard something that you do not hear from the buffoons on Fox News and Rush Limbaugh.

 

[steveox]

Build the mosque here

Or were do this tommorow

Its your choice

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Build the mosque here

Or were do this tommorow

Its your choice

Please let me know when you start posting anything of value...

 

[pocketfullofshells]

I posted:



You "answered":



Either you did not read my post, can not read my post, are insane, or, etc., etc. Explain to me please, why the Muslims do not attack those other counties.

your trying to get blood from a stone here...Has Gipper ever backed anything up? ever?

 

[BigRob]

and no place did I say we should cower in fear...But we do have to understand that our Action do have reactions, and not all are going to be good..

I do not dispute that, but let us not become somehow unable to blame a terrorist for being a terrorist all the while pointing fingers at the victims of said terrorism.

and when we have people like Bush making up crap about how they hate us for our Freedom..and ignore that they hate us for our Policy...we are just asking to get hit again and again and not understand who we are fighting...

Well, keep in mind it is not just "our" policy, yet we bear the brunt of their disdain.

 

[Gipper]

Define: "Super Power". What do the Muslims say as to why they want to defeat the U.S.? Can you give references/links to Islamists stating that they want to be, " ...the world's only super power..."?

No, they have often stated that they want the U.S. presents and more importantly the U.S. influence out of the Middle East. They see us as an invasive species and want us out of their lives. They resent the influence American business (McDonald's, Nike, Mobile Oil, etc.), and culture (music), has had on their lives. They resent the fact that the U.S. aids, pays for, and supports Israel. They fear losing their Muslim traditions.
Want to be the "...only super power...", indeed.

Then there are the rich Muslims that live in Dubai, Saudi Arabia, etc. Like the rich everywhere, they may be Muslim, but they worship the dollar more and do not give a damn what the U.S. does.

Now, you have heard something that you do not hear from the buffoons on Fox News and Rush Limbaugh.

So, the war by Islam against us is caused by our involvement in the ME. You believe this to be true. Yes?

So your solution to the problem is we must get out of the ME altogether and that will end their war with us. Is this correct? I will assume you agree with this statement.

I have no problem with our getting out of the ME altogether. I think that would be a good strategy, but it will not result in an end to the war. Radical Islam demands world domination. It is their creed. And, it is not a religion of peace as the dipsh*t W said and we are at war with radical Islam unlike what the dipsh*t BO said.

Why has BO not gotten us out of the ME if as you believe, that is the answer? He must know how Muslims feel. Yet, BO is increasing our presence in the ME. Why would he do this when to end the war, all we need do is leave?

Rich Muslims worship the almighty dollar???? You think this is some kind of revelation???? Really. And you compare that to my comments on the Barbary Pirates. Really lame dude.

 

[Gipper]

Great column. Pay attention libs...

Last Updated: September 12. 2010 12:37PM
Nolan Finley
Islam must turn other cheek

How absurd is it that the deranged pastor of a tiny Florida church can make the entire world hold its breath just by threatening to burn a book?

The Rev. Terry Jones of the Dove Outreach Center in Gainesville is a hate-filled nut, for sure. But nothing he's done or vowed to do in offering what can only be viewed rationally as a minor insult to Islam merits the paranoia in the West about a worldwide wave of bloodshed at the hands of offended radicals.

Jones was implored not to carry out his promise to burn a copy of the Quran by, among others, the United Nations, the pope, Gen.general David Petraeus and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates.

His back-and-forth deliberating was covered as if it was another Bay of Pigs stand-off and this scruffy preacher had his finger on the button.

Come on. Jones should have been entirely ignored. He's not an official of our government, nor is he a national leader in any fashion. He's an obscure redneck, or at least he was until the cameras showed up at his 50-member church.

That Jones captured so much attention is an indication of what the West is up against in its effort to coexist with Islam.

Yeah, I know -- all Muslims aren't mayhem makers. But the lunatic fringe is apparently wide enough to trigger an extreme overreaction from our nation's top offices to a silly little publicity stunt.

If Muslim sensibilities are so tender they can't ignore the bizarre rants of an insignificant American fanatic then this is a culture with a serious anger management issue, and one the West can't help with.

There's no way to head-off every potential slight to Islam. Last time it was Danish cartoons, this time it's a Pentecostal pew jumper who lays down his snakes to strike a match.

Tomorrow, an atheist in Italy may name his dog Mohammad, or a biker in Australia will have a likeness of the prophet tattooed on his backside.

The only answer is for Islam to grow up. Religion invites antagonism; get used to it.

Using the destruction of a book as an excuse to rampage is unacceptable and immature. A Quran, like a Bible, is a physical thing. What makes both books holy are the ideas and inspiration they contain, not the pages and ink. The religion won't be broken by taunts, or by bonfires.

Burning a Quran in the Florida swamps doesn't weaken the foundation of Islam any more than burning an American flag in Pakistan dents our nation's underpinnings, or coating an icon of the Virgin Mary with elephant poop, like that "artist" once did in Cincinnati, undermines Christianity.

Grown-ups shrug off such affronts for the ignorance they are, and move on. They don't go nuts, as the radicals did after the cartoon episode.

We've had the mantra "Islam is a religion of peace" drilled into us for the past nine years. But Muslims still have some work to do to make that case. Peaceful religions aren't so easily provoked to violence. Religions of peace turn the other cheek.


From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100912...n01/Islam-must-turn-other-cheek#ixzz0zPVORRsq