a question for the atheists

your point of view notwithstanding, the occasion is what it is based on the Christian scripture there is no Christmad without God's gift to us all
I don't know if you are making a statement or a typo when you say "Christmad". If I or Dawkinsrocks typed that, it would be a statement that ChristMad is a madness of camping in line for hours to join the hoards rushing into stores when they open on Black Friday (an appropriate ironic name) ... or to wonder if you should send Aunt Betty a card this year because she didn't send one last year ... or you wonder how much you should spend on Sally, because you spent much more last year on her gift than she spent on yours.

92% of Americans believe in God, but Christmas to most Christians is the time to worship Santa Claus, and maybe Jesus for an hour when they make their annual visit to church. You don't need to lecture atheists, on your true meaning of Christmas, you need to lecture your fellow Christians.

I can easily brush aside the madness and enjoy the seasonal peace on earth and good will toward man without having qualms about what the occasion is based on -- real or imaginary.
 
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I don't know if you are making a statement or a typo when you say "Christmad". If I or Dawkinsrocks typed that, it would be a statement that ChristMad is a madness of camping in line for hours to join the hoards rushing into stores when they open on Black Friday (an appropriate ironic name) ... or to wonder if you should send Aunt Betty a card this year because she didn't send one last year ... or you wonder how much you should spend on Sally, because you spent much more last year on her gift than she spent on yours.

92% of Americans believe in God, but Christmas to most Christians is the time to worship Santa Claus, and maybe Jesus for an hour when they make their annual visit to church. You don't need to lecture atheists, on your true meaning of Christmas, you need to lecture your fellow Christians.

I can easily brush aside the madness and enjoy the seasonal peace on earth and good will toward man without having qualms about what the occasion is based on -- real or imaginary.

my typing is not great sorry typo.
I have never heard of any semblence of Santa Claus worship. I suppose you could try to connect St. Nick and the misconception that Catholics
worship saints to get there but thats quite a stretch.
hope you have a happy holiday but perhaps you might consider leaving Christmas to Christians.
 
my typing is not great sorry typo.
I have never heard of any semblence of Santa Claus worship. I suppose you could try to connect St. Nick and the misconception that Catholics
worship saints to get there but thats quite a stretch.
hope you have a happy holiday but perhaps you might consider leaving Christmas to Christians.
Yeah, I knew it was a typo, but it did give me an excuse to rant.
I meant worship in a metaphoric secular sense (idolize), not a religious sense.

I wish you a merry Christmas.
 
Thank you JPRD. You said something that would be self-serving if I said it. To many, atheism is a bad word. It seems that some even fear atheists.

Your comment about some folks fearing atheists is interesting. Some folks seem to fear Christians and Jews. WHY anyone would fear Real Christians or Real Jews is beyond me. The basic tenets of behavior in both religions are ones of peace and love. The fear of which you spoke may well be a reaction to the strident, arrogant, and dictatorial voices of SOME atheists who demand that religion, religious traditions, etc. be restricted and belittled. If there's a "group" that we should ALL fear, it's one that specifically endorses the annihilation of other religions, or the elimination of anyone who believes or doesn't believe in a God. I'd argue that the only Christians or Jews that atheists should fear, are those who simply claim one or the other of those religions, but lead lives in complete opposition to their claimed religious principles; i.e., the liars and impersonators.

I don't like it when ALL atheists are tossed into a bucket titled "bad" or "evil", because atheists are individuals, not an homogenuous group. The same is true of Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. It's the tendency of leftists to toss anyone who disagrees with them into various, selective buckets, each of which is partially labled "bad".

I suppose that some Christians and Jews fear atheists because atheism isn't a structured and detailed philosophy, and therefore doesn't uniformly espouse specific rules of behavior or morality. It could be a matter of religious folks fearing the unknown?? They don't know how atheists are supposed to behave. Perhaps you might want to write an Atheist "Bible" once you retire? ;) It's a pleasure from time to time to conduct discourse with civility and tolerance.
 
My entire atheist family celebrates Christmas. We put up outdoor lights, a Christmas tree, give gifts, send cards that say "Merry Christmas", enjoy Christmas get-togethers. It's a wonderful uplifting season with a focus on peace on earth, and Santa Claus.

Why would I have qualms about it.

The phrase peace on earth would be ridiculous if it were meant to mean that there would not be warfare or strife between people.
 
Many of those holidays are bastadizations of pagan holidays anyway.... Why not engage in what is primarily a cultural event, not necessarily related to religious dogma?
 
Many of those holidays are bastadizations of pagan holidays anyway.... Why not engage in what is primarily a cultural event, not necessarily related to religious dogma?

if you want to celebrate Saturnalia then celebrate Saturnalia.

this is CHRISTmas.

but you are to point out that our Christian culture has made Christmas a commonly purposeful event ala Easter All Hallows Eve etc. if you chose not to be part of that culture then you shoiuld at least be consistant about it.
 
That is certainly the Catholic point of view. I understand why Christians want to honor God, but you have to understand that is an empty concept to atheists. I don't believe there is a God that has created the universe, or micromanages people or events.

I have a great awe of the universe and everything in it, and that's why I am a physicist -- to study the intricate details of what you see as God's creation. If I want to look at it from your point of view, I honor the creation through a study of physics, which I think is the finest possible "liturgy", but I understand that not everyone can do that.

First of all, the only evidence we have that something called God exists is the amazing complexity and orderliness of the universe. Every year cosmology and the study of subatomic particles reveal a system that is so orderly, that scientists from Einstein to modern day scientists are making predictions of what we might find in the future - including multiple dimensions where we might find a graviton.

In other words, there is plenty of room in the universe for God. That could include souls from the dead which manifest itself as paranormal and metaphysical events. Certainly a lot of unexplained events that fall into that category.

God has always been used as a term for "the unknown". Thousands of years ago you could tell someone that the common cell phone was a miracle from God - how can voice travel over long distances with no visible method? And thousands of years from now it seems probable that we will discover explanations for things that are attributed to God now - such as heaven and hell.

Personally, I have had an several experiences in my life where I felt the presence of a divine power guiding me through difficult situations - so I believe that God can and does exist in some form on earth in our daily lives. But for us scientists, you have to feel it to believe it. Stories from ancient books hold no credence to me, and religions are just an organizations that have evolved over the years. Most people need a religion to put a ritual to God.

But, for me, the evidence that I presented above is sufficient for me to believe in the existence of a higher power, albeit quite abstract at this point.
 
First of all, the only evidence we have that something called God exists is the amazing complexity and orderliness of the universe. Every year cosmology and the study of subatomic particles reveal a system that is so orderly, that scientists from Einstein to modern day scientists are making predictions of what we might find in the future - including multiple dimensions where we might find a graviton.

In other words, there is plenty of room in the universe for God. That could include souls from the dead which manifest itself as paranormal and metaphysical events. Certainly a lot of unexplained events that fall into that category.

God has always been used as a term for "the unknown". Thousands of years ago you could tell someone that the common cell phone was a miracle from God - how can voice travel over long distances with no visible method? And thousands of years from now it seems probable that we will discover explanations for things that are attributed to God now - such as heaven and hell.

Personally, I have had an several experiences in my life where I felt the presence of a divine power guiding me through difficult situations - so I believe that God can and does exist in some form on earth in our daily lives. But for us scientists, you have to feel it to believe it. Stories from ancient books hold no credence to me, and religions are just an organizations that have evolved over the years. Most people need a religion to put a ritual to God.

But, for me, the evidence that I presented above is sufficient for me to believe in the existence of a higher power, albeit quite abstract at this point.


coming to experience the presence of God is rather difficult to explain but unmistakable in understanding what it is as you describe. I can understand how those who have yet to experience this have trouble comprehending it. it also is a bond among those of us who have.

regarding the science aspect of explaining the universe a friend made a brilliant observation that irrespective hos how many layers of understanding that science may reveal, like an onion there is always another layer that remains unexplained and unexplainable. and is not the very depths which have been revealed only add to the wonderous nature of God's hand in crafting the universe ?

its no wonder that so many brilliant scientists live in awe of God.
 
The vast majority of members of the royal society are atheists

The universe has nothing in it that is evidence of any god and certainly none for the god of the bible

Jesus Christ as described in the bible did not exist and the character that most approximates to that fiction ie not very was not born on December 25th

There are many explanations why you think you are having some kind of experience you call the presence of god but a common denominator is self delusion

If god is perfect he could have had no need or desire to make the universe and certainly couldn't have made something as imperfect as people

But my thread about the stupidity of Christians is supported yet again

And dog, your friend didn't make a brilliant observation

The onion analogy has been around for years

If your friend's plagiarism constitutes brilliance I can see how you would gave difficulty grasping the impossibility of god
 
Your comment about some folks fearing atheists is interesting. Some folks seem to fear Christians and Jews. WHY anyone would fear Real Christians or Real Jews is beyond me. The basic tenets of behavior in both religions are ones of peace and love. The fear of which you spoke may well be a reaction to the strident, arrogant, and dictatorial voices of SOME atheists who demand that religion, religious traditions, etc. be restricted and belittled. If there's a "group" that we should ALL fear, it's one that specifically endorses the annihilation of other religions, or the elimination of anyone who believes or doesn't believe in a God. I'd argue that the only Christians or Jews that atheists should fear, are those who simply claim one or the other of those religions, but lead lives in complete opposition to their claimed religious principles; i.e., the liars and impersonators.
The problem may be deeper than that. It may be an ingrained survival factor of clans to be suspicious and fearful of any group that thinks and acts differently. That includes political parties too.

I agree with you that fear or disdain should not be aimed at the religion, but should be aimed at the charlatans of the religion. There are a lot people in government that are trying to get religion into the science classroom, and that's one thing I fear.
I don't like it when ALL atheists are tossed into a bucket titled "bad" or "evil", because atheists are individuals, not an homogenuous group. The same is true of Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. It's the tendency of leftists to toss anyone who disagrees with them into various, selective buckets, each of which is partially labled "bad".
Yeah, that seems to be a common trait of every group. A similar tactic is to define the worst traits of an opposing group and believe that everyone in the opposing group has or supports those traits. I see it here all the time, and those doing it are on both ends of the political or religious spectrum.
I suppose that some Christians and Jews fear atheists because atheism isn't a structured and detailed philosophy, and therefore doesn't uniformly espouse specific rules of behavior or morality. It could be a matter of religious folks fearing the unknown?? They don't know how atheists are supposed to behave. Perhaps you might want to write an Atheist "Bible" once you retire? It's a pleasure from time to time to conduct discourse with civility and tolerance.
I have been retired for over 10 years, and for the most part an atheist bible has already been written. There is no need these days for the Genesis to be so metaphorical. A science section would trace the universe from the big bang to stellar and planetary formation. Adam and Eve would be replaced by evolution, and the transcendence from Neolithic man to Paleolithic man.

Ethics are principles where man can live in harmony with each other, and his society can survive without self destruction. These principles are to some extent ingrained in the brain. Studies found that lower primates have a concept of fairness, empathy, etc. These principles can be printed in a "Bible" of moral codes, but moral codes such as the ten commandments are largely ignored by most anyway whether there is a fear of God or not. Unfortunately individual survival or gain often prevails over survival of the society.
 
First of all, the only evidence we have that something called God exists is the amazing complexity and orderliness of the universe. Every year cosmology and the study of subatomic particles reveal a system that is so orderly, that scientists from Einstein to modern day scientists are making predictions of what we might find in the future - including multiple dimensions where we might find a graviton.

In other words, there is plenty of room in the universe for God. That could include souls from the dead which manifest itself as paranormal and metaphysical events. Certainly a lot of unexplained events that fall into that category.

God has always been used as a term for "the unknown". Thousands of years ago you could tell someone that the common cell phone was a miracle from God - how can voice travel over long distances with no visible method? And thousands of years from now it seems probable that we will discover explanations for things that are attributed to God now - such as heaven and hell.

Personally, I have had an several experiences in my life where I felt the presence of a divine power guiding me through difficult situations - so I believe that God can and does exist in some form on earth in our daily lives. But for us scientists, you have to feel it to believe it. Stories from ancient books hold no credence to me, and religions are just an organizations that have evolved over the years. Most people need a religion to put a ritual to God.

But, for me, the evidence that I presented above is sufficient for me to believe in the existence of a higher power, albeit quite abstract at this point.
I have had a number of epiphanies ("A comprehension or perception of reality by means of a sudden intuitive realization"), where I am overwhelmed by the physics of the universe and our conscious awareness of it. Of course many religious people have similar things too. But I attribute the feeling to a recently discovered section of the brain where meditation, prayer, etc. has been found. We humans are endowed with a mystic or spiritual area in the hardware of our neural wiring.

In short, the potential for spiritual belief is wired into our brain. Perhaps this is an evolutionary survival factor to keep our selfish genes from being too selfish.
 
Lagboltz: I haven't replied to your entire post, but two paragraphs impressed me as needing a response. This is not intended to minimize your other points. I just have a greater intellectual interest in the ones below. ;)

I have been retired for over 10 years, and for the most part an atheist bible has already been written. There is no need these days for the Genesis to be so metaphorical. A science section would trace the universe from the big bang to stellar and planetary formation. Adam and Eve would be replaced by evolution, and the transcendence from Neolithic man to Paleolithic man.

Over the years, I've received criticism from some of my Christian and Jewish brothers and sisters for embracing the belief that theories like "big bang" and "evolution" are not necessarily inconsistent with a belief in God. I contend that since the Old and New Testaments were written to a great extent by human beings, the possibility of errors is very probable. I have no problem myself in accepting the possibility that God created the universe via "big bang" nor that He allowed development of many species via evolution. I have many many questions in the field of evolution that result from what I see as inconsistencies in logic and supporting data and rationale. Therefore, I don't accept Darwinism exactly as he stated the theory. However, I have an open mind on many of the details. I see no conceptual problem in accepting most science and a belief in God as being compatible.

Ethics are principles where man can live in harmony with each other, and his society can survive without self destruction. These principles are to some extent ingrained in the brain. Studies found that lower primates have a concept of fairness, empathy, etc. These principles can be printed in a "Bible" of moral codes, but moral codes such as the ten commandments are largely ignored by most anyway whether there is a fear of God or not. Unfortunately individual survival or gain often prevails over survival of the society.

The key concept in your above paragraph is the absolute need for a culturally-enforced set of behavioral rules! Moral-equivalency is NOT an option! Such rules of behavior can be enforced legally in some cases, and via cultural pressure/ostracization in others. I have serious issues with the societal norms presently deemed "acceptable" in the USA by most media, politicans, business executives, and individual citizens. If you were asked what ONE thing could be done to solve most of our nation's problems, the answer is simple, but not easily accomplished. If all citizens were ingrained in the homes, schools, theatres, etc. with behavioral rules that demand honesty, self-reliance, civility, etc., most of our nation's ills could be reduced enormously. Our government obviously believes that human nature can be modified, as many politicians have implemented anti-smoking campaigns, anti-obesity campaigns, cultural-sensitivity campaigns, etc. IF such cultural modifications really work, why not campaigns that enforce personal responsibility, self-reliance, honesty, civility, etc., and enforce those behaviors in our media, our courts, our politics, our businesses, etc?

"Good" societal norms used to be enforced on the basis of Christian principles. I argue that MOST of those religious principles were and are good ones worthy of obedience. In any case, the cultural decline in the US results to a great degree from a corrupt concept often called "moral-equivalency". If the left believes that gay marriage and abortions are morally "Good", then the left obviously believes that morality is a concept that can be stated in law and enforced! The left's claim, therefore, that the enforcement of a Christian view of "morality" is un-Constitutional is hypocrisy! The question here is "Whose concept of morality is worthy of societal enforcement"? I love debating that concept.

Thoughts?
 
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The vast majority of members of the royal society are atheists

The universe has nothing in it that is evidence of any god and certainly none for the god of the bible

Jesus Christ as described in the bible did not exist and the character that most approximates to that fiction ie not very was not born on December 25th

There are many explanations why you think you are having some kind of experience you call the presence of god but a common denominator is self delusion

If god is perfect he could have had no need or desire to make the universe and certainly couldn't have made something as imperfect as people

But my thread about the stupidity of Christians is supported yet again

And dog, your friend didn't make a brilliant observation

The onion analogy has been around for years

If your friend's plagiarism constitutes brilliance I can see how you would gave difficulty grasping the impossibility of god


did I state that it was original ?

of what significance is royal society's view of anything ?
 
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